CR Issue

[Guard Dog]

This thread was already played out at GPWA. I know you didn't like the response, but to rehash it again at AGD really makes no sense, IMO.

There is at least 15 pages worth of information on this over at GPWA.

 

[Aussie-Dave]

Settle down, Dave. This thread was already played out at GPWA. I know you didn't like the response

I'm cool Andy...

What I'm not OK about is how it was swept under the carpet at the GPWA...I mean really, take a look at that email text and then the screen caps sent to one (1) of my players.

Do you see any affiliate tag attached to those links? Because I don't...

If that not enough proof, take a look at the tag at the footer of AztecRichesCasino.com it's tagged as a direct type in. Which the player came from clicking the link in that (untagged) email sent to them by CasinoRewards.com

The the CasinoShare.com footer tag, again another type in BUT in fact it's my tagged player who again only found that casino becuase CasinoRewards sent them untagged links.

Seriously it's not rocket science Mate.

The fact is my affiliate is not present and CasinoRewards are contacting tagged players void of giving credit to the affiliate. That's about as dodgy and unethical as it gets.

Anyone or any so called affiliate organisation (namely the GPWA) who turns a blind eye to this is just as dodgy and IMHO as rogue as the affiliate program/casinos doing the unethical cross marketing.

 

[TheGamblingGuru]

There is at least 15 pages worth of information on this over at GPWA.

Yea, I know that...but YOUR Opinion on this issue and situation I could not find there...and as such, since I post a hell of a lot more here than I do there because I believe in your integrity more than I do of Michael's at the GPWA then I still would like to hear your genuine thoughts on this matter, especially since I just recently started working with them back a couple months ago...

Thought I stated that already...


Heck, Send me a private message Andy if you don't want to publicly post your thoughts on this, I would appreciate either way though.

____
____

 

[Guard Dog]

ah. my opinion I was talking about was in regards to the thread and immediate barrage.

I am on vacation currently and will speak more on Monday, however, I felt the whole thing was adequately explained at GPWA and some changes were implemented appropriately.

 

[Aussie-Dave]

There is at least 15 pages worth of information on this over at GPWA.

All of which Michael allowed Rewards Affiliates to stonewall, play semantics and generally not answer question or address the cross marketing for over 4 months. Then when things got too hot for Renee/Casino Rewards...

Michael posted he was taking the thread private.

Member would vote on whether or not RA should have their sponsorship pulled...That vote said YES...But Michael them comes out sayingthat vote was NOT to decide if RA was to have their sponorship pulled but to get an idea of how member felt

Those 15 pages you refer to are just a white wash.

Please Andy, show me where my affiliate link is in that email sent to my tagged player?

Please tell me why why MY affiliate tagging is not at the footer of AztecRiches or CasinoShare.com?

When that player is my player and ended up on CasinoRewards.com becuase they sent him an email without my affiliate tag.

 

[TheGamblingGuru]

ah. my opinion I was talking about was in regards to the thread and immediate barrage.

I am on vacation currently and will speak more on Monday, however, I felt the whole thing was adequately explained at GPWA and some changes were implemented appropriately.

OK, won't bother you any longer while you're on vacation but when you return lets do discuss this. Either here or privately...because it's obvious that's something is most definitely still not right about this issue.

I think we are both smart enough to know that it was swept under the rug fairly quickly over at the GPWA.

Thanks

____
____

 

[Aussie-Dave]

I should also mention my player was contact an additional five (5) times with emails the day he signed up. Worse these emails were sent within a 3 hours period - now that is harrassment!

---------

However probably one of the worse displays I've seen by a casino, much less an eCOGRA sealed MGS casino is what was sent to my player. Just so people understand my friend doesn't gamble online - he doesn't gamble at all he's not a gambler!

----- Original message -----
From: "Loyalty CasinoRewards" <loyalty@casinorewards.com>
To: tim_xxxxx@fastmail.com.au
Date: 11 Apr 2011 08:58:25 +0000
Subject: RE: RE: Tim Xxxxxx, Captain Cooks Casino VIP player from Adelaide
Hi there Tim,

I chatted to you the other day and I thought I’d pick up from where I left off. I’ve been told by my supervisor to look after you!

For starters, I’m going to credit your account with an extra 10 credits on the house when you make your first deposit. After this, we can see what else we can do for you so please let me know if I can go ahead with this.

Also, if you’re thinking of depositing larger amounts, I’ll personally make sure you’re never short of a decent bonus ;-)

In case you don’t remember, your account number is: ccc011xxxxxxxr

Enjoy the rest of your day in Adelaide and I look forward to your reply.

Kind regards,

Captain Cooks Loyalty Team

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark – Captain Cooks Loyalty Supervisor
Sent: Apr 11 2011 4:33:07:153AM
To: loyalty@casinorewards.com
Subject: RE: Tim Xxxxxx, Captain Cooks player from Adelaide

Hi,

I’ve had a look at Tim’s account and would like you to keep an eye on it as they seem like they could be a good player.

Can you do me a favour and get back to Tim by tomorrow for me and offer a decent bonus?

BTW, if Tim deposits more than the minimum, then credit the account with an even bigger bonus – I’ll leave the sum to you ;-)

Regards
Mark
Captain Cooks Loyalty Supervisor

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: loyalty@casinorewards.com
Sent: Apr 11 2011 4:23:07:153AM
To: Mark – Captain Cooks Loyalty Supervisor
Subject: Tim Xxxx, Captain Cooks player from Adelaide

Hey Mark,

Hope you’re well. Just a quick mail with regards to one of my new players - I chatted to someone called Tim from Adelaide the other day. I’ve had a look at their Captain Cooks account and I think they deserve 10 $ bonus if they make a deposit.

Just wanted to double check with you that I can go ahead and credit the account with the extra 10 $ bonus?

Kind regards,

Captain Cooks Loyalty Team


---------

Compare these two email details. You'll notice they are both time dated exactly 10 min apart. However what tells me these are computer generated (fakes) is the way the dates are compiled. 4:33:07:153AM and 4:23:07:153AM

Secondly Mark contacts an internal CCC rep, this rep obviously knows Mark because he states "Hope you’re well." But signs out not with his name but the generic "Captain Cooks Loyalty Team".

These two internal emails are as fake as they come....

From: Mark – Captain Cooks Loyalty Supervisor
Sent: Apr 11 2011 4:33:07:153AM
To: loyalty@casinorewards.com
Subject: RE: Tim Xxxxxx, Captain Cooks player from Adelaide

From: loyalty@casinorewards.com
Sent: Apr 11 2011 4:23:07:153AM
To: Mark – Captain Cooks Loyalty Supervisor
Subject: Tim Xxxx, Captain Cooks player from Adelaide

Compare these to the email details Tim received:
From: "Loyalty CasinoRewards" <loyalty@casinorewards.com>
To: tim_xxxxx@fastmail.com.au
Date: 11 Apr 2011 08:58:25 +0000
Subject: RE: RE: Tim Xxxxxx, Captain Cooks Casino VIP player from Adelaide

---------

This is the type of stuff that Casino Rewards is sending your tagged players. Absolute total BS and verging on bait and switch.

Add this fake email exchange between the Loyal Supervisor and Captain Cooks casino Team to the fact CasinoRewards.com contact my player BUT didn't include my affiliate tag, goes to show what type HIGHLY UNETHICAL casino operation this CR runs.

And what's worse...

The GPWA knowingly allowed this to continue, they gave Casino Rewards and Rewards Affiliates carte blanche to treat affiliates like this and did nothing to stop their unethical cross marketing by dropping affiliate tags. And to this day the GPWA are fully aware Casino Rewards and Rewards Affiliates have hijacked players from affiliates and have stolen their rightful income but do nothing...

The only thing the GPWA does do is, take whatever means required to close down people like me who speak out about these crooked, thieving actions.

 

[Engineer]

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.



This issue was discussed at length at the GPWA earlier this year. I have pasted the highlights below for those that haven't read the posts. Bolding/underlining is by me.

We do not cross-promote/push active players across our brands or un-tag them from affiliates. Our retention team focuses solely on keeping the player playing under their own active account and our customer service and promotions are tailored to the casino that the player is interested and playing on. All offers are sent to the player with the account number of their most recently used casino account and are solely focused on keeping them playing.

I would also like to let everyone know that everything below has been the case for as long as our group has been around – over 10 years. Nothing is new or changed and nothing has been “just started”.

There are no tags pulled through to the Casino Rewards website (this includes when players log into their loyalty account). This means that if a player goes to casinorewards.com via any means (email, aff tag, marketing tag, type in), and clicks on one of the casinos listed on the site, the last referrer to the casino they clicked on will get the player. If the player has not previously been referred to that casino or previously visited the casino via typein, the player will be tagged to the casino.

Example
Affiliate A sends Player X to Golden Tiger. Player does not register.
Affiliate B sends player X to Casino Action. Player does not register.
Player X types in CasinoRewards.com. From there they click on Casino Action, register and start playing. Since Affiliate B was the last referrer to that casino, Affiliate B will have that player at Casino Action.
The player then goes back to Casino Rewards and clicks on Golden Tiger, registers an account and starts playing. Player X will be tagged to Affiliate A on Golden Tiger because Affiliate A was the last referrer to that casino.
Player X goes back to Casino Rewards and clicks on Lucky Emperor, registers and starts playing. The player is untagged since no affiliate has referred the player to Lucky Emperor previously.

Do players at Rewards casinos get emailed offers to play at other Rewards properties?
Players will get emailed offers to play at the casino they are currently a member of. If they are a member of multiple casinos, they will receive offers for all of those casinos they are registered at up until a certain time frame (usually over 1 year) that the casino feels their retention efforts have failed. Players will also receive promotions that are available at any of their existing accounts, letting the player choose which casino they would like to claim the promo at. Again these promotions are for existing accounts only. CR does not send promotions for other casinos to active players.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is no way we would offer/entice/encourage a player to switch brands for the sake of “saving money”. We do everything in our power to keep the players happy and playing at the account they want to play at most and would do nothing to jeopardize that player’s satisfaction. Our retention and VIP level of service is one of our strongest points in this industry and most of you would have seen old players coming back after months of not playing. If we cross promoted or unmapped the players you would not see the player value you do.

After much back and forth between myself and management, as well as myself and the GPWA about possible solutions we have not been able to come to one that will 1)satisfy everyone, and 2) keep the current level of branding and retention we have, and 3) be technically viable and realistic.

For this reason management believes that continuing with the way things are run now, and the way tagging is done now is the best way forward. Again, management does not believe the logos in the newsletters are a form of cross promoting, but a form of branding and they believe the logos being there far outweigh the benefits of them not being there. They also believe that tagging to the last referrer to each individual casino brand is the fairest way forward.

Sources:

Beginning of GPWA thread

Posts by Renee:

post637574
post638268
post638999
post640295
post640947
post640961
post641072
post642406

 

[Vladi]

I had a long reply which I lost but here's the executive summary:

The cross promotional "leakage" via the central rewards loyalty program is bad.

You win some and you lose some with this policy. Don't forget that. Some of the players you have referred may have already held accounts at other casinos in the group. If so you gained a player that you otherwise would not have. If you assume you lost some then you need to assume you gained some too.

You've knowingly aided and abetted in defrauding affiliates out of million of dollars of their rightful commissions.

Statements like that won't help you win an argument without any evidence and/or numbers to back it up.

Hounding Renee about this is like picking on the kid working the counter at McDonalds about their contribution to deforestation in South America (with due respect to Renee). It is very clear that this policy has been set from above her and she can't do anything about it, so I am not sure what blasting her with emails and forum posts is going to achieve other than to upset her.

Dave if you know the owners and think you have a strong case then take them to court. I for one would love to see what the outcome is - at the very least it would probably compel them to reveal some interesting financials relevant to this. I am not a lawyer but maybe posting here in a confrontational manner could jeopardise your chances?

 

[Aussie-Dave]

Hi Dave,

Was kinda expecting a post from you, glad you showed up ;D

Defend Renee, Casino Rewards, Rewards Affiliate and the GPWA...You or anyone is entitled to your opinion.

However, fact is if I or any affiliate sends a casino a player who joins... and that casino group contacts my player and does not tag that player BUT sends them to their site (untagged)....and that player signs up at one of their other casinos AND is then tagged to the casino AND NOT ME...

There is nothing faintly ethical about these actions. If your ok with casinorewards contacting your players with straight links without your affiliate tag...then that's your business.

However it's unethical and dodgy...no difference bwtween this and what StarPartners or any other casino has done who have been busted for unethical cross marketing void of affiliate tags.

 

[Aussie-Dave]

Dave if you know the owners and think you have a strong case then take them to court. I for one would love to see what the outcome is - at the very least it would probably compel them to reveal some interesting financials relevant to this. I am not a lawyer but maybe posting here in a confrontational manner could jeopardise your chances?

I've only every wanted to sort this out amicably between both parties. And boy have I tried to be fair on this.

However after been ignored repeatedly by Renee and being told she wont comment (have emails to prove it), one starts to get extremely frustrated. That frustration gets further infurating when I'm contacted by Anthony from the GPWA who tells me CR/RA will not discuss this directly with me but only through him...

I am one of RA's affiliates. I operate my own business which neither Anthony, Michael or the GPWA is a partner of. Frankly this issue is between RA/CR and myself...but Renee wants to stir the pot...Hence the reason I'm not posting publically again.

Albeit Renee is just an employee - or does she also get a kick back from these cross marketing links (why has she got her own aff tag?).

Regardless of anything she the appointed spokesperson and in that regard she's at the very least answerable.

Over the four (4) months this was permitted to drag out unchallenged by the GPWA. But thanks to my solicitor and the public information act in Australia etc...etc. We were able to obtain information not only about the owner and managing director of ITS Management but also about the other beneficiaries connect to the Family Trust along with other companies connecting back to et al.

Personally I wanted to avoid the costs incured with legal action and reiterating have gone out of my way to try and discuss my issues with CR/RA.

However they wont talk instead are happier playing BS games.

As this is not my solicitors expertise. I have consulted with a gaming lawyer also versed in IT law here in Australia. However 1 hour appointment cost me $1,500...We're not talking chump change to obtain a court ruling on this matter.

I'm sure RA/CR have worked out I don't have 200K+ to throw at this to fight in court. Only those who own 30 casinos have that type of cash

Personally it would be easier for CR/RA to simple come to the table and discuss this with me, so we can settle this amicably and then put this baby to bed.

But if they want to play games, I can play games too.

Edit: Now can someone please explain to me why it's OK for CasinoRewards to contact one of my tagged players, supply them with untagged links to casinorewards.com and other sites they own, have my player click on another casino and then have MY PLAYER tagged to CasinoRewards?

Not forgetting CR/RA would not have this playewr if I didn't refer them. And they certainly would not be on the CR site UNTAGGED if they did not contact my player with a direct, untagged link(s)...

 

[Aussie-Dave]

This really is BS on the part of the GPWA and anyone who thinks what CR/RA is doing is ok.

 

[casinobonusguy]

Dave ,
This thread has not gone unnoticed by me ,I just do not have the time and energy to make this into an issue but we have given our team clear instructions when they find any rewards properties on our network they are to remove them.I hosted a dinner in Canada about 10 days ago and many affiliates were there and Rewards was discussed by few others and there is concern these sort of cross promotions may be start of soemthing bigger down the line.I see no point to keep forum threads going on this matter,it is out there for everyone to see and make their own decisions.I have been affiliate 8 years and I have always found the rewards team helpful but have never made any decent money with them despite having 7 figures (ONE MILLION PLUS) earnings with another Microgaming Platform.Did i give rewards chance to make million dollars with me no but i think they definitely should be earning me more.Would I tell affiliates not to work with Rewards no, but i would tell them that I do not feel comfortable sending them any more traffic.
It is unfortunate if you and Renee lose a friendship over this issue , I also think if you sent players you can prove to them they should investigate the issue.In fact I recommend we all do a test on them if possible to see what happens .Set up unique email for the test.I am a private member of GPWA as are many of you in this thread the vote was to suspend rewards .Rewards made some changes and management felt that was sufficient.

 

[Aussie-Dave]

Hi Judy,

Thanks for posting, confirming the GPWA vote and sharing your experiences partnering with Rewards and CR.

the vote was to suspend rewards......
Rewards made some changes and management felt that was sufficient.

Regardless of management views...The Tribe Has Spoken! That vote should have been acted on and suspended RA, end of story.

Sadly that's hardly ever the case unless it fuels an agenda. Then a vote is certainly a voting decision and acted upon.

If Rewards cleaned up their act, delt with and settled all issues, then another vote is initiated and members decide whether to let Rewards Affiliates back in or not.

All sponsors should be treated equal. If they screw up and members vote to suspend them, then they get suspended.

But again, management sold the GPWA out, WHY?

Money seems be a strong motivator in this association. It influences a lot of decisions. But the GPWA IS NOT a commercial entitity. The best interests and welfare of its member should always come first and be placed ahead of anything else by management.

From memory the .net was changed to the .org because as Corfman put it, it represented the GPWA better (or words to that affect). BS!

IMHO, Members and the GPWA are used as a commodity to boost this W##kers bank account. And it's always done at the expense which almost always affects the livilihoods of GPWA members.

Given managements generalised modus operandi and Reiterating The Tribe Has Spoken! The decision to disregard the members vote, can only point to a contra deal being held (by management) with Casino Rewards / Rewards Affiliates.

GPWA members voted to suspend RA as a sponsor. That members vote should have been honoured. No if's no But's.

---------

Sadly the majority of GPWA members never question or hold management accountable.
Instead, they rally along side the people who are selling them out.

Worse, turn on those few members who genuinely hold the values of what the GPWA should be about, and who unselfishly put themselves in the firing line to uphold ethical ideals of integrity which should be embraced, not frowned upon or rediculed.

 

[inspiration]

Originally Posted by Renee
Example
Affiliate A sends Player X to Golden Tiger. Player does not register.
Affiliate B sends player X to Casino Action. Player does not register.
Player X types in CasinoRewards.com. [IF the player clicks on the casinorewards.com logo on each casinosite/page NO affiliate tag will be carried through] From there they click on Casino Action, register and start playing. Since Affiliate B was the last referrer to that casino, Affiliate B will have that player at Casino Action.
The player then goes back to Casino Rewards and clicks on Golden Tiger, registers an account and starts playing. Player X will be tagged to Affiliate A on Golden Tiger because Affiliate A was the last referrer to that casino.
Player X goes back to Casino Rewards and clicks on Lucky Emperor, registers and starts playing. The player is untagged since no affiliate has referred the player to Lucky Emperor previously with all those casinos they have chances are very high you lose your player this way, remember each time the player has to logon to casinorewards.com for the player comps...

Originally Posted by Renee
We do not cross-promote/push active players across our brands or un-tag them from affiliates [casinorewards DOES cross promote quite heavily, no point in denying ]. Our retention team focuses solely on keeping the player playing under their own active account and our customer service and promotions are tailored to the casino that the player is interested and playing on. All offers are sent to the player with the account number of their most recently used casino account and are solely focused on keeping them playing.

I have not talked about number of cross promo emails from the former Vegasaffiliates, playshare partner, Villento brands I have received.........

I think most affiliates that are in favor for the CR cross marketing efforts need to do their homework, this leakage is very bad for us.

NOTE : if other programs startup such a flagship you end up getting pennies for the dollars fairly quickly.

Think again.

 

[ocportal]

CR is a absolute cheating affiliate program, tested them and others did too.

 

[inspiration]

CR is a absolute cheating affiliate program, tested them and others did too.

Can you be a little more specific please ?

What exactly have you tested and what were the results ?

 

[Aussie-Dave]

inspiration's post:
https: //www. affiliateguarddog. com/forums/28746-post35.html

Originally Posted by Renee
We do not cross-promote/push active players across our brands or un-tag them from affiliates [casinorewards DOES cross promote quite heavily, no point in denying ]. Our retention team focuses solely on keeping the player playing under their own active account and our customer service and promotions are tailored to the casino that the player is interested and playing on. All offers are sent to the player with the account number of their most recently used casino account and are solely focused on keeping them playing.

Casino Rewards sent my player numerous untagged links. Proof is here:
https:// www. affiliateguarddog. com/forums/28701-post16.html

I'm yet to see anyone who is defending Rewards about this matter respond to my question(s) about these statements much less Renee:

We do not cross-promote/push active players across our brands or un-tag them from affiliates [casinorewards DOES cross promote quite heavily, no point in denying ]

What's been allowed to continue doesn't make sense. And it makes even less sense when people in positions of TRUST defend these unethical cross marketing actions!

 

[ocportal]

The tested results are missing test players and missing money, I won't upload any proof at this time, definitely to a later moment. Won't be only CR

 

[KasinoKing]

Many thanks AussieDave, for the info in this thread.
Today was the first I've heard of this (or maybe I read something before but the full implications weren't absorbed by my brain cell..)
This is a VERY serious issue, and if you are correct, then CR should be tossed in the rogue pit, simple as.

I'm on holiday this week, but if you can give me your affy tag to a CR casino I'll sign-up next week & test to see what happens when I click on links in their e-mails.
Your tag must NOT be for one of these casinos (which I already joined):
BlackJack Ballroom
Captain Cooks
Casino Classic
Challenge
Golden Reef
Golden Tiger
Grand Mondial
Phoenician
Villento

Cheers,
KK