Is MGS the Ruse of 2 Decades?

[AussieDave]

2014 marks for Microgaming twenty years of operation, commencing in 1994. Now one year shy of its 21'st Birthday; of MGS coming of age so to speak, why are so many affiliates and players voicing their dissatisfaction with both casino powered by Micogaming and the casino affiliate programs they partner with.

As a player I experienced one insane ride for 6 weeks (March - April 2014) playing at an MGS casino. Yet, with winning so much cash, I'm still convinced that MGS have been tweaking their slot games since they exited the USA market. This opinion is drawn, not only from playing MGS casinos since 1997 but also from many years being an affiliate who's number one promoted brand was MGS.

We've all seen radical drops in player retention across MGS affiliate programs - maybe these programs are legitimately losing players by natural occurrences. Why this mass decline in player numbers and other questionable performances?

By all accounts, it could be that (MGS) players are sick and tired of watching their deposits get sucked down tube with little to no success.

If anyone has played as long as I have, then you'll have a comparison to what slot games like Thunderstruck, Spring Break, Ladies Nite and those early video slots would pay-out. These days, these same games are pathetic. Once it common to see 5 scatters and other top pay-outs from these games being posted to the Winners Forum at CasinoMeister. Yet since MGS exited the USA market, these video slot games only with other slots have got worse and worse, to the point where obtaining 5 scatters is like finding a needle in a haystack. And as a further example... Scattered respins, get those years ago and you'd be guaranteed a decent pay-out. That doesn't happen anymore, most times if you get 20x your base bet returned your doing ok.

When one takes into account Microgaming have always refused (from day 1) to release the specific RTP for each slot machine and, monthly audits on these games are not released individually BUT as a combined percentage, then imo, it leaves MGS wide open to criticism. It certainly breeds valid doubt to their claims that, "MGS slots RTP are set in stone".

Over the years, MGS has claimed their progressive jackpot (1, 3 and 5 line) slots are not weighted. However its be established this is not true. And, MGS progressive jackpot slots are indeed weighted. Microgaming have also claimed their games are 100% random. However using a Quasi-RNG is not the same as using a True-RNG. Hence, the basis for these claims to 100% randomness is debatable.

At one time all Microgaming casinos were audited by PriceWaterHouse Coopers, then they were dropped and replayed by eCOGRA, which, was commenced with start-up funds by Microgaming and 888. Could any other commercial entity hold any greater conflict of interest, as what MGS held or continues to hold with eCOGRA? Ummm NO!

It's all these twists, turns, semantics and efforts to disguise (conceal) the facts (err truth), which has me wondering if, Mcirogaming has pulled of the biggest ruse in online casino history!

 

[byebyebaby]

I think more and more slot games use a lot of added features like ways, wild reels, other special wild symbols, bonus games with all sorts of bells and whistles. The more features they add to games the less these things seem to pay out big.
I think this is not a Microgaming issue. NetEnt, Playtech and also WMS have similair slots.
These days its slots that pay all or noting. So 1% wins all, 99% wins nothing. But that is just how I feel.

 

[AussieDave]

I think more and more slot games use a lot of added features like ways, wild reels, other special wild symbols, bonus games with all sorts of bells and whistles. The more features they add to games the less these things seem to pay out big. I think this is not a Microgaming issue. NetEnt, Playtech and also WMS have similair slots.
These days its slots that pay all or noting. So 1% wins all, 99% wins nothing. But that is just how I feel.

Agreed the lastest slots, especially the 243 payway, seem to equate to the 1% win and 99% lots of eye candy with little hope of winning.

However that doesn't explain why slots like Thunderstruck, Ladies Nite and Sping Break, all of which are 9 lines and only have 15 free games @ 3x mutipler are paying out so crappy these days...

 

[byebyebaby]

Could it not also be the fact that fewer people play those "older" games, so it might seem like they pay out less? Don't mean to dissagree with everything you say, but I do believe that payout % didn't change much overall. But personally I feel your pain, can't even remember when I had a nice win on any Microgaming slot, must be at least a year ago and I play often.

 

[DaftDog]

My post is a bit of a conspiracy theory as I have no actual proof. I always seem to win when I sign up at a new casino but once I have made a cashout then all those good paying games turn around and bite me in the arse. The free games and other bonus features are all of a sudden much fewer and when they do hit seem to pay out a lot less.

Also when a new game is released it seems to pay out handsomely, but after a while they seem to dry up too. Playtech's Iron Man 3 and Gladiator slot games are prime examples in my opinion.

 

[Guard Dog]

I do know exactly what you mean, Bet4You. I used to be able to play ISIS and get some big wins (Thunderstruck too, but to a lesser extent). That stopped happening, though. So - I see that point. As far as MGS casinos themselves, they aren't going to perform as well anymore as stand-alone properties. Too many other casinos have multi-platform, multi-provider architectures. Why play at an MGS casino when you can play at one with MGS, NetEnt, BetSoft..... and more? Exactly.. there is no point to it.

 

[AussieDave]

Could it not also be the fact that fewer people play those "older" games, so it might seem like they pay out less?

I see your point too

Things is though, I know of plenty of players who still play the "older games". And Like AGD said, he used to get some great wins on Isis - another game I used to like playing but that too has turned to shite!
There is no valid reason why these older style video slots would dry up or why the "new release" games seem to pay out handsomely for the 1'st month or so then also dry up.

My own perspective seems that these slots got a lot worse when MGS changed to the wide screen (download) version. Previous to this all MGS slots used reel-strips. However today, AFAIK, their slots now use dynamic reels. Which means there are no-reel-strips, instead, all icons are created on the fly. I believe this took place when they introduced Hellboy. From that point onward they (MGS) updated every slot to dynamic reels. That's why titles such as Ladies Nite, Thunderstruck and Spring Break et al look slightly different to what they once were.

Where this becomes interesting, over at CM a guy managed to crack the reel-strip poistions for, I believe, Spring Break and also Tomb Raider. Not too long after this, is when MGS commenced changing from reel-stripes to dynamic reels. Albeit this may not seem like a BIG deal. However, changing to dynamic reels means that MGS could, if that's what's been going on, change the position of icons, which would reduce the RTP. Even if it's only a reduction of 2 or 3% RTP, it makes a HUGE difference in play.

I've racked my brains trying to figure out why these slots have gone bad and the dynamic reel theory is the only one I can come up with, which makes any sense and one which would be very hard to detect.

 

[KasinoKing]

Where this becomes interesting, over at CM a guy managed to crack the reel-strip poistions for, I believe, Spring Break and also Tomb Raider. Not too long after this, is when MGS commenced changing from reel-stripes to dynamic reels. Albeit this may not seem like a BIG deal. However, changing to dynamic reels means that MGS could, if that's what's been going on, change the position of icons, which would reduce the RTP. Even if it's only a reduction of 2 or 3% RTP, it makes a HUGE difference in play.

I was one of the guys who "cracked" the reels - I have the reel strips for about 25 of the older slots on my SlotBeaters site (Stopped adding more due to lack of interest).
I disagree with you though about MG having "Dynamic reel-strips". It might seem that way because some of their strips are VERY long, and with many games (now) they use different strips in some of the free-spins & bonus features. But I still believe the vast majority of their slots are "truly random" i.e. have fixed reel-strips and each position has the same chance of landing on the win line.

I did read the opening post with much interest right after it appeared, but didn't reply because I didn't know what to say really. I know what I believe, but I can't prove anything, so I thought best to keep quiet.
New games these days definitely seem to be aiming for entertainment value rather than payout potential, but I do still believe the RTPs are in the 95%-ish ball park overall. The main change is the variance, which the lower it goes, the more it favours the casinos. I really don't "get on" with most of the 243-way slots - I prefer the older ones where you can still get a decent hit without all the "bells & whistles" as someone else put it.

KK

 

[AussieDave]

I was one of the guys who "cracked" the reels - I have the reel strips for about 25 of the older slots on my SlotBeaters site (Stopped adding more due to lack of interest).
I disagree with you though about MG having "Dynamic reel-strips". It might seem that way because some of their strips are VERY long, and with many games (now) they use different strips in some of the free-spins & bonus features.

But I still believe the vast majority of their slots are "truly random" i.e. have fixed reel-strips and each position has the same chance of landing on the win line.

Randomness is a funny creature. And, replicating true random numbers can only be achieved with a True-RNG (Real RNG).

What an online casino uses is a Quasi-RNG (Pseudo RNG) - "Random numbers should not be generated with a method chosen at random.” [Dr.Knuth,1998]. Which is exactly how the seed of a Quasi-RNG is generated, it's chosen. Hence what casinos use to generate the results of their games, is not a true random RNG. Unfortunately players, affiliates, casino staff et al have been led to believe that casinos operate on truly random numbers, which is not the case at all.

I'm sure most of us have read a similar statement - it would take millions of spins to determine if a slot machine (or any other casino game) is producing random results (or words to that effect). Unlike most slot players, I have a few favourites which I play 99% of the time and one game (Break da Bank Again - agreed very high variance) which, at a guess, I've player well over 10,000,000 spins on (BDBA) at 32Red. IMHO that's certainly enough play time on one slot machine, to determine if the results are truly random. Frankly I do not believe they are as random as we are led to believe.

My point to all this...
If MGS slots are truly random (err which they are not because they use a Quasi-RNG) and the reels are not dynamically generated, why have the pay-outs on games such as Thunderstruck, Ladies Nite, Spring Break, Isis and others (including BDBA), radically changed and become tighter than a fishes butt hole?

 

[KasinoKing]

My point to all this...
If MGS slots are truly random (err which they are not because they use a Quasi-RNG) and the reels are not dynamically generated, why have the pay-outs on games such as Thunderstruck, Ladies Nite, Spring Break, Isis and others (including BDBA), radically changed and become tighter than a fishes butt hole?

Where is your proof that the RTPs have dropped on those games?
(And I do mean PROOF - not just your gut feeling).

KK

 

[CCL]

I have been playing at the download Microgaming casinos almost every month for 8 years and have not noticed any changes. Actually hit 5 scatters for the first time on the original Avalon slot some weeks ago. But who knows..maybe they did change the payouts.

 

[AussieDave]

Where is your proof that the RTPs have dropped on those games?
(And I do mean PROOF - not just your gut feeling).

Just side tracking for a bit... Proof could be established by play data logs...

I requested my play logs in July 2012, from the day I commenced playing at 32Red. That amounted to 4 years and 6 months. At every other MGS casino where I've requested such data, it has arrived within a few days.

In this case however it took numerous emails to chase up this data, only to receive six (6) months of my play logs and, I'll add, it was anything but how MGS data should be received. A total mess is being kind, it was in an appalling state of disarray. This 6 months of play data took a staggering 14 weeks to arrive!

Happy to send you what I received, so you too can see the mess of data I was sent.

The only way this data could be correlated was by cross-referencing my deposits - identical (the same) play game entries were scattered in either duplicate or triplicate throughout the six (6) months of play data. When it was finally sorted out, there were discrepancies.

As far as the outstanding four (4) years of play data. I was told it's stored away from MGS in a secure location and it would take a bit longer to retrieve. Well... I'm still waiting for that 4 years of play data. July 2014 will be two years I've been waiting

Makes me wonder what MGS are hiding... just sayin!

Added Edit:

NB - Aprox 97% of that entire game play was on Break da Bank Again.

 

[AussieDave]

Hey CCL welcome to the forums, I'm guessing this is you - completecasinolist.com?

 

[CCL]

bet4you,yes thats correct guess.

I checked some payout statistics at All Jacpots and 32Red and cant
see any differences over the years.

Slots payout at All Jackpots January 2008 94,93% in March 2014: 96,72%
and 32Red payout January 2008 94,71% in March 2014: 95.15%

But i doubt every single spin on MG games is random as the games do remember the gameplay.
So if you had many great wins on Break Da Bank Again one day you probably wont the next day.

 

[tryme1]

"But i doubt every single spin on MG games is random as the games do remember the gameplay.
So if you had many great wins on Break Da Bank Again one day you probably wont the next day."

If you really believe this, CCL, then I would suggest you don't gamble or promote casinos. The randomness of slots is integral to how they function.

 

[TheGooner]

It's variance ... the variance will drive you crazy ... ;-)

 

[AussieDave]

Just to clarify my thread title -
Is MGS the Ruse of 2 Decades?

It's a question, not a statement

 

[Artur]

I really believe in Microgaming
but the last two years
something has changed
in the offices "managerial"

People are not the same anymore

Marketing managers have become invisible

nobody help or information about new products

Nobody investment in the quality of the games

But despite this
many affiliations did not have any scruple
in saying

"if you do not bring new players within 3 months
will no longer receive commissions of the old players"

(example: wagershare.com)

 

[AussieDave]

"But i doubt every single spin on MG games is random as the games do remember the gameplay.
So if you had many great wins on Break Da Bank Again one day you probably wont the next day."

If you really believe this, CCL, then I would suggest you don't gamble or promote casinos. The randomness of slots is integral to how they function.

Actually you might want to rethink that reply...

Tomb Raider Secret of the Sword (I'm sure other MGS slots do this also). When one hits the bonus round feature; pick the sword parts, the bonus coin values are calculated from the base game average of bet value per spin played. If that's not "remembering gameplay" I don't know what is!

I checked some payout statistics at All Jacpots and 32Red and cant
see any differences over the years.

Slots payout at All Jackpots January 2008 94,93% in March 2014: 96,72%
and 32Red payout January 2008 94,71% in March 2014: 95.15%

Those figures are taken from the averages of over 300+ slot machines... These RTP's are then all combined into one (1) single #%. I'll add, so too are table games, video poker and every other game - the RTP of every single game is combined and the average of these figures is given as a single #% for monthly game audits at MGS casinos.

Thunderstruck was released in 2003. It was designed on the Australia pokies style (3 or more scatters gave free spins feature). This herald the beginning of a swag of Video slots with free spins and bonus feature games, which are still being released by MGS to this day. Remember, MGS does not (in most cases) retire its slot machines or casino games.

Back then 2003 MGS had how many slot machines in total? At a guess about 80, if that. Hypothetically, reducing the RTP on popular slots when you only have 80 slot machines would be risky. However doing it when you have 300+ slots...well.

For those not mathematically inclined, here's a simple fictious example of how the average RTP of 10 slot machines is calcutated and how that overal RTP is reduced to (1) single #%:

1. slot A - 96.8%
2. slot B - 95.7%
3. slot C - 99.1%
4. slot D - 83.7%
5. slot E - 95.5%
6. slot F - 96.9%
7. slot G - 95.3%
8. slot H - 95.9%
9. slot I - 97.3%
10. slot J - 98.6%

The average RTP of these 10 slot machines is - 95.48% (add all 10 numbers together and divide by 10).

eCOGRA may audit all-the-slots BUT they only provide a single # RTP on their monthly audit report. EG - slot D is 83.7% RTP. What could be achieved with 300+ slots, especially if you knew which slots were hardly played. The RTP on these could be pumped-up (increased) to offset lower RTP values. I've personally had sessions where I've played back-to-back-days on BDBA and the RTP doesn't go over 55%. At worst its plumeted to a lowly 33%.

Albeit the RTP does fluctuate. But in theory the slot machine's RTP (whatever it is set to), will replicate the RTP over a given time period.

I used to be able to play ISIS and get some big wins (Thunderstruck too, but to a lesser extent). That stopped happening, though.

when a new game is released it seems to pay out handsomely, but after a while they seem to dry up too. Playtech's Iron Man 3 and Gladiator slot games are prime examples in my opinion.

I'm not the first person to raise this question, I probably wont be the last either.
All I'm saying is... we've been force-fed the RTP on MGS slots "Are Set In Stone."

But where's the proof? It's all hear say from 3'rd parties or from the likes of eCOGRA who hold vested interest and conflicts of interest too... just sayin!

Caveat - I'm not saying you can't win on MGS slot machines or their casino games in general. I'm merely pointing out flaws in which, we really have no idea what each slots RTP is because MGS refuse to hand this out. They (Microgaming) have used the excuse it will encroach on their IP (interlectual property) rights if they disclosed these figures (words to that effect). Other casino software providers supply the RTP on each of their slot machines. I personally don't accept their excuse. So, why the secrecy at MGS...

Added: Not withstanding news recently coming to light that the Moshal Family, hold a controlling influence or ownership over Microgaming. And, have from day one owned casinos such those bundled into Fortune Lounge Group, Jackpot Factory Group, ex Carmen Media and Red Flush et al. All now embodied under the Digimedia Brand.

All these casinos have claimed independence from each of these groups and no ownership connection. They've led us all up the garden path & clearly have little respect for the truth!

Who's to say they're not jerking us off in relation to the claim, RTP on MGS slots are set in stone... just sayin

 

[KasinoKing]

Just to clarify my thread title -
Is MGS the Ruse of 2 Decades?

It's a question, not a statement

NO.

As a regular player of MG for 10+ years I honestly believe they have the fairest and most random software out there.
Others may disagree - that is their prerogative - but I am entitled to my own opinion.

KK