How many affy programs steal your players?

[KasinoKing]

As an affiliate you have to 100% trust your affiliate programs to accurately and honestly tag players you refer to your affy account, but are they all on the straight & narrow?

I've never really worried about this too much in the past, but recently I've had more than normal reason to suspect I'm being ripped-off

I have contacted all these people - but got no response at all.
So it's time to name & shame!
I'm also going to post my suspicions in the casino's section here, if they have one.

888.com; Promoted them heavily for 3-years, but they say NO sign-ups ever...

Mansion Casino; Promoted them for 3-years, but they say NO sign-ups ever... but a genuine player contacted me & said he 100% definitely joined & deposited via a link on my site.

BetUS (Rival) Casino; Promoted them for 3-years, but they say NO sign-ups ever... but Robwin said he joined via my site & deposited.
{Edit to correct June-30th} Sorry I got that wrong - it was only 1 year of promoting and 11 sign-ups but NO depositing active players. Robwin is NOT listed as a registered player.

Supreme Play; A genuine player contacted me & said he 100% definitely joined & deposited via a link on my site... but he does NOT show in my list of registered players.


Please vote in the poll and/or add your comments & experiences in this thread.

Ta,
KK

 

[arkyt]

I believe a lot of programs shave, but other than suspicion there is really not much we can do to prove it.

In my case with Vegas Affiliates as an example - for 5 years I averaged 3000+ a month with them, then after UIGEA, my traffic to them (as well as others like them) went down.

Not long after that they started messing with their terms and conditions / quotas etc ... around the same time I started seeing big winners every single month - consistently for over a year. It's my opinion, that since I was not sending in bulk traffic, I was and am being shaved. Last month I seen deposits of 29000+ my commission $30 ...

What makes the story even more odd is that several times through out the year of consistent winners I would contact the manager and inquire about what was going on. A few times I was contacted by 'new' managers and the following month I would make very good profits. Then without notice those managers would end up leaving the company and the winning would resume.

I have no undeniable proof, but 10 years in the industry is enough to make me highly suspicious. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do - other than remove them from my sites and move on.

 

[Guard Dog]

The only one I have experience with is the BetUS Rival and I pulled them from my homepage because they were getting *by far* the most clicks yet I never got a player.

I switched them out wit 'Vegas Aces' which is also BetUS owned, but have already gotten a player. I think the problem with them was VERY poor conversions... they do not take much care of that casino, IMO.

 

[tryme1]

Hmm....well, tracking problems are not necessarily an indication that a program has set out to rip you off. But, frankly, the end result is the same. If you don't see a player within a reasonable amount of clicks, switch to a different sponsor.

There are, however, many, many reasons why a particular property won't convert and shaving is just one of those.

 

[TheGamblingGuru]

KK, good thread buddy. Sahara Sands was the other one that I signed up to thru you and you also said that you did not see me there either...remember

This BS is sick too, my latest gripe is BestCasinoPartner, click after click and download after download and still no sign-ups or deposits. This shit is getting old really fast!
____
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[GFPC]

Well since i have been an affiliate there was always the thought this could happen and i had discussed it with several programs from time to time and we have done our own internal research and noted some of the programs not tracking players.

Big Daddy's Poker and Casino is by far the most disgusting rogue outfit that stole players and affiliate earnings and ran off.

Then of course close behind CPAYS (Affiliates United) - I closed my relationship with them and settled.

Luck3 has now robbed affiliates and players and their own staff.

These are for sures!!

The not so sure one i have issue with now and yet still have faith in them is Europartners. I know many affiliates claim to be scammed from them, and i also question if this has happened to me.

I recently had a player who deposited - i got all their infos and times and dates of their deposit and it was not tracked.

Europartners claims it was a cookie issue and cant return the player to me. I do not know whether to believe them or not.

So for Europartners is 50/50 for me now and i am considering ending a 3 year relationships with them. Wee lost huge since the stat issues and the fact we lost approximately 900 poker players when Tony G slip off. But they paid us off for that in a fair deal.

I am sure there are more degenerate programs out there, but this is our experience.

 

[arkyt]

click after click and download after download and still no sign-ups or deposits.

The irritating thing is that a lot of these programs will tell you that the economy is down, people aren't spending as much, your site just doesn't convert blah blah etc etc they will come up with a dozen or more explanations as to why an affiliate isn't doing good.

Then they will rush off to another conference to spend big bucks partying it up - every other month it seems. If times are so tough - how do they justify spending all that money to party to the same old guys and gals every other month?

I have always believed that the 'conference affect' is very much a real thing and the more conferences this industry has the more it affects us.

Whats really sort of sick is that 100 affiliates could prove they were being cheated by program XYZ and 10 affiliates who were doing well would still swear by the program.

 

[GFPC]

That's part of the problem.

Most affiliates could care less about other affiliates. Only when it affects them otherwise they just keep quite ( MOMS the Word)

The irritating thing is that a lot of these programs will tell you that the economy is down, people aren't spending as much, your site just doesn't convert blah blah etc etc they will come up with a dozen or more explanations as to why an affiliate isn't doing good.

Then they will rush off to another conference to spend big bucks partying it up - every other month it seems. If times are so tough - how do they justify spending all that money to party to the same old guys and gals every other month?

I have always believed that the 'conference affect' is very much a real thing and the more conferences this industry has the more it affects us.

Whats really sort of sick is that 100 affiliates could prove they were being cheated by program XYZ and 10 affiliates who were doing well would still swear by the program.

 

[inspiration]

I think all of you have players that switched casinos or became inactive and you have been depending on just a few depositing players. You can not blame the program for that. Tracking is always 100% and not one player will get untagged ever. Even the transfer of USA players from MGS has been completed without any errors. For playtechs e.g. your old EP links track a full 100% and their system is the best out there. For Rivals you probably rank for the low value keywords and some highrollers you have, asked for having their accounts closed or decided to play elsewhere. Retention of all programs is very high as it is a win win scenario. Maybe you need to improve your site rankings and add more useful content so you can send more traffic to get better average results.

;D

 

[KasinoKing]

KK, good thread buddy. Sahara Sands was the other one that I signed up to thru you and you also said that you did not see me there either...remember

Oh yeah - I forgot about that one!
So lets add them to the roll of shame:-

Sahara Sands (Rival); A genuine player (Robwin) contacted me & said he 100% definitely signed-up via a link on my site... but he does NOT show in my list of registered players.
(I just double-checked - still not listed).

Well since i have been an affiliate there was always the thought this could happen and i had discussed it with several programs from time to time and we have done our own internal research and noted some of the programs not tracking players.

Big Daddy's Poker and Casino
CPAYS (Affiliates United)
Luck3
Europartners

Not surprised about that list.
I have never promoted any of those due to hearing they've all had pretty terrible reputations in various aspects of their operations for years.

I did reluctantly sign-up with Affiliates United to promote William Hill only, because they were my favorite casino for years. But since the switch from Will Hills own affy system 20 months ago I have (apparently) had ZERO income from my existing players and, of course, NO new sign-ups... ???
I think it's time I kicked these winkers to the curb too.

KK

 

[GFPC]

Hey Without a doubt i would agree - get rid of Affiliate United - they are the most disgusting leeches in this industry for shaving and stiffing affiliates.

I learned the hard way!!

As for my list - yeah Affiliate United, Luck3, Big Daddys - all disgraceful outfits, and i mean total disgrace to the industry. Not worth pissing on.

As for Europartners - I still have faith and trust in them to do right by me. Even though i get emails from so many affiliates telling me to axe them - there's something that keeps me for doing it... But i will admit i feel a little dumb for continually trusting them. I am close to ending my relationship with them if they continually screw me over - it will not be pretty. But of course i will only have myself to blame. Well see what they do to correct issues.

 

[slotplayer]

my traffic has increased by 11,458 unique visitors ytd over last year but new depositing players are far and few inbetween in comparison.

Although I was getting higher quality traffic last year.

 

[Aussie-Dave]

Top thread KK ;D

I didn't answer the poll because there wasn't a specific answer for what I think.
So I'll say it here, instead.

I've got one specific example but I wont be naming and shaming, maybe later, but right now they know who they are.

For now that's good enough

I've had a free casino games site running for almost 3 years now. The free games were supplied by a well known casino group who custom designed the games suite with my Band Name. To play the games players signed up using an email, which was sent an activation link.

As far as I was aware players who played these free games were tagged.

These emails where then entered into (this well known) casino groups DB and they then marketed their casinos to these players.

In 2 years and 10 months over 30,000 emails have been collected.

About 12 months ago we decided to send out emails to all people that hadn't signed up. I was told at the time 10,000 of these emails had to be removed from the list because they were already signed up as players. However they were not tagged to me.

For the past 12 months I've been trying to get a straight answer to this. Until month or so ago I got this:

The 10,000 emails were removed because they'd been heavily marketed to and the (casino group) didn't want to send these email any more offers.

However that's not what I was told...

Of course I'm p#ssed, but what can I do?

If I pull the group from my site, they can pull a FU clause and screw me, reverting me to 10% rev share. Not fair but it happens.

So in answer to your question KK...

I think every program has flaws that enables players to fall through the cracks. Some programs do it deliberately and continue to do so even when it's a know issue. Whilst others, it just goes with the aff game.

I'm sure there is a way to stop it happening.

Just like casino programs know X number of players type the casino URL directly into the browser whilst on an aff site, instead of clicking the banner.

You can't tell me the URL on banners is there for any other reason

Cheers

Dave

 

[Vladi]

GFPC, drop EuroPartners pronto. I know an ex-employee from there and all I can say is that your instincts are correct.

I know for a fact that shaving is widespread in this industry. No ifs or buts. But not all programs do it - the trick is finding the ones that you are fairly sure don't.

As for why? Because it is so easy. You send your players to a "black box" and have to trust the program to be both honest and competent. And there are far too many money-hungry and unethical people in the industry, not to mention unprofessional and incompetent. There are so many ways they can do it, either intentionally or unintentionally, that I have come to the uneasy conclusion that its like shoplifting which the shops factor into their prices. I don't like it but if I want to be an affiliate in this industry I have to live with it and move on if I am suspicious.

However with regards the first post, I find it highly unlikely that a group would deliberately shave the first player you send them so that you never get any players with them. That is counterproductive - better to gain your trust and then shave the highest value players, or credit you the players and just shave a few deposits here and there. So in those cases it is much more likely that they are plain incompetent.

 

[lots0]

I don't know what it is about this board, but every time I have a nice long post it loses it...

 

[KasinoKing]

I don't know what it is about this board, but every time I have a nice long post it loses it...

Me too - and it's INCREDIBLY frustrating!
A couple of weeks back I spent over an HOUR writing a detailed post and when I hit "submit" I got a "page can not be displayed" error and it was all lost!
I used to have this problem at the WinnerOnline forum too.
What you need to do is try to get into the habit of copying any long posts into Word or other external program BEFORE you hit submit.

KK

 

[Guard Dog]

I've been trying to sort this out It is a timeout issue. Something in vBulletin is hanging for an extended period of time. It is really frustrating on the server end too.


The server itself is high-end and is not the cause of the problem. It is somewhere else that is eluding me, my server guys, and programmers. I'll find it, though, and get it resolved.

Truly sorry (and embarassed)

 

[lots0]

Thanks Andy! No need to be embarrased... we all got our little glitches

KK, I was just going to say that I have seen a bunch of others say the same thing about 888 and manison... lots of traffic but no conversions.

I blacklisted 888 after a long conversation with their manager... he made no bones about the fact he despises paying affiliates anything at all. His attitude.. We would have gotten the player anyway... way pay an affiliate.

I use the 1% rule. If they don't convert at, at least 1% I drop them.

Any dummy can convert 1% just by accident, so if your not getting at least 1% conversion your getting ripped off.

 

[lots0]

Also like to point out that 888 has teamed up with Harras.

Their business model will be the model that legalized gambling will have in the US... And their ain't no room (in their minds) for affiliates.

Regulation in the US will not be what a lot of folks in this business expect.

 

[Aussie-Dave]

I've been trying to sort this out It is a timeout issue. Something in vBulletin is hanging for an extended period of time. It is really frustrating on the server end too.

Don't use vBulletin so just shooting from the hip.

Could it be a session issue?
X number of seconds allowed idle then the session ID times out.

Or maybe some sort of time out idle thingo...
I had a similar thing on a phpBB forum I ran.


Cheers

Dave