Why Affiliates Distrust Affiliate Programs!

[AussieDave]

You've obviously put time into thinking this through Otto. It's certainly not an easy task, regardless of the road taken. Sorry if my posts have an undertone of cynicism to them, I'm really quite an optimist guy. However this industry is synonymous with turning trust inside-out.

I agree that the only way were going to survive individual, is IF we all band together.
But is the words of Lots0 (the affiliate), to get affiliates to work together, "is like herding cats, paranoid cats."

For starters the super affiliates don't seem to care about the little fishes. Ironically though all this stealing of players and what not, will eventually make its way up the line, if it hasn't already. You can only get so much out of the little fishes.

Personally I'd be happy getting 15 - 20% IF I had access to ALL the play data, However what's stopping a program keeping 2 books? GP @ MGS had 2 databases and then there was the accusations that Brightshare was also running 2 databases. And as the story goes, BS were actively detagging players; the reason for 2 databases.

Lets take MGS for example, I'm not 100% au fait on how other software programs operate.

All data is run via MGS, they receive monthly royalties on casino turnover. Knowing how MGS operates, I know this DATA would not be corrupted. But the million dollar question is... How on earth would you persuade MGS to supply affiliates with this information?

 

[cassaon888]

You've obviously put time into thinking this through Otto. It's certainly not an easy task, regardless of the road taken. Sorry if my posts have an undertone of cynicism to them, I'm really quite an optimist guy. However this industry is synonymous with turning trust inside-out.

I agree that the only way were going to survive individual, is IF we all band together.
But is the words of Lots0 (the affiliate), to get affiliates to work together, "is like herding cats, paranoid cats."

For starters the super affiliates don't seem to care about the little fishes. Ironically though all this stealing of players and what not, will eventually make its way up the line, if it hasn't already. You can only get so much out of the little fishes.

Personally I'd be happy getting 15 - 20% IF I had access to ALL the play data, However what's stopping a program keeping 2 books? GP @ MGS had 2 databases and then there was the accusations that Brightshare was also running 2 databases. And as the story goes, BS were actively detagging players; the reason for 2 databases.

Lets take MGS for example, I'm not 100% au fait on how other software programs operate.

All data is run via MGS, they receive monthly royalties on casino turnover. Knowing how MGS operates, I know this DATA would not be corrupted. But the million dollar question is... How on earth would you persuade MGS to supply affiliates with this information?

Hi Dave,

Yes I have. I don't think your tone is cynic I know where you're coming from.

Lotso's take on affiliates uniting is quite funny but it's the truth. I'm just surprised that affiliates know exactly what's going on but no one is doing anything about it. I don't think affiliate programs will be too happy to share all the stats with us and became transparent otherwise they'll lose too much money. I guess if one wants to make headway, start with the jurisdictions and software providers first. With the right individuals to champion our cause I firmly believe it could be done. That said, and as you pointed out, it's going to be quite a task to get the software providers on board.

I even contacted two eminent scholars to do a white paper on the affiliate side of things but unfortunately they're too busy. Professor Robert Williams of the University of Lethbridge in Canada had the following to say:

Interesting (but not surprising) info. Unfortunately, my research schedule is too busy over the next 6 months to contemplate any additional papers.

 

[Lloyd Apter]

The only way this can be done is through auditing. The auditing party should be agreed upon as well as the scope and frequency of the audit. The audits will need to cover a review of all policies that effect the affiliates commissions and a way of then checking that check policy is implemented. Like any business, there are privacy issues that must be considered but auditing is built for the task.

 

[Guard Dog]

I definitely agree with you Lloyd. Are you talking about a real auditor, though, like Price Waterhouse? Or talking about an affiliate-level audit like most here are discussing? PWC used to do a lot of these, but once other way less trusted organizations came through to audit - it has become more of a farce (IMO).

 

[AussieDave]

The only way this can be done is through auditing.

I agree but what concerns me, is what mechanisms guarantee 100% certainty, the data being audited, is legit and not fudged?

 

[Lloyd Apter]

It's tricky because it should be done by qualified auditors because that's their profession and what they are trained to do but on the other hand we need a totally neutral body. This is take some work to decide... The auditor would need to be an agreed body so that affiliates will trust the results.

 

[Guard Dog]

100% agreed. And, I think we can all agree it cannot be eCogra

 

[AussieDave]

For instance, I don't trust eCOGRA as far as I could throw them. I did however trust PWC. But on the same token, an audit is only reliable, if, the data is legit.

 

[Lloyd Apter]

Regarding eCogra - I went through several audits with them and they are very professional and I trust them, the only issue may be what they audited and to whom they reported and of course costs.

 

[AussieDave]

Granted I won a sizable lump of cash at a MGS casino last year but... I've also being paying MGS casinos since 97. Since 2009, I've pretty much played BDBA for 7 years solid. We're talking a crap load of play from low roll bets to max @ $45 a spin. Ever since 2012 or there a bouts, BDBA has gone through noticeable changes in what it pays. I've got literally 100's of screen caps of a variety of wins on that slots, for every month previous to when things started going pear shaped.

So much so in 2013 I requested my play data, dating back to 2009. I received Jan - July 2013. The rest never received.
Was told it's in storage - I'd get it when I git it, least to say I'm still waiting on MGS to send it

It's sh#t like that which lead me to wonder wtf?

Lloyd... You an I got back a looooooooooooong time, you and a couple of other AM's are the only one's I trust 100%....just sayin

I hate not being able to trust people but I've been burnt so many times in the industry, that I can no longer do that and keep my business afloat.

EDIT: Sorry got a bit off track there... My point was to say if I don't think that games audit data is legit, what hope do we have to ensure the affiliate program data is legit?

 

[Lloyd Apter]

For instance, I don't trust eCOGRA as far as I could throw them. I did however trust PWC. But on the same token, an audit is only reliable, if, the data is legit.

PWC and not eCogra? It's the scope of the audit that is the issue. I can tell you that whatever eCogra was commissioned to do they did, regarding the audit. The data must of course be confirmed as legit and that means understanding and then checking the database configuration and the data itself.

 

[Guard Dog]

That is the best response, Lloyd. The scope is most definitely the issue. PWC does full scope audits and is very good at them.

Doing a partial scope is the same as marketing, IMO. Audit the good, don't look too close, publish the goodness. That is no different from analyzing data and publishing the range that corroborates your intended findings.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

 

[slotplayer]

The only sure way is to middle man the deposits.

 

[AussieDave]

The data must of course be confirmed as legit and that means understanding and then checking the database configuration and the data itself.

I don't want to dig up old boxes of the Pandora kind but... We've seen evidence of double database usage in the past. Retierating... unless there's a means by which an auditing company would know if the data is 100% legit, then anything other is just a remodel of what is already taking place. Which IMHO, in some instances @ some programs, is fudged data.

Doing a partial scope is the same as marketing, IMO. Audit the good, don't look too close, publish the goodness. That is no different from analyzing data and publishing the range that corroborates your intended findings.

Agreed.

 

[AussieDave]

The only sure way is to middle man the deposits.

It's just not the deposits though... Casinos/Programs can work ALL kinds of trickery.

I suppose the way to ensure legitimacy would be...

Player >> Middleman >>> Casino

Casino (bonuses, comps, deposits, withdrawals) >> Middleman

Middleman >> Affiliate Program

Great in theory BUT seriously how many programs/casinos would agree to this... my guess none.

 

[Lloyd Apter]

Say for example player tagging and the casino commits to not retag unless... (some good reason(s)):
So the the first thing is to check the database setup and understand how the affiliate reporting system gets updated from the source data.
Then, determine all the options for updating tags in the system between source data and affiliate reporting and understand if there is policy in place to ensure that this only happens for the good reason(s) mentioned above.
And then, this needs to be audited - looking at player tags in source data and comparing the player tags in affiliate reporting data and then getting a reason for all the differences.
Lastly, transparent reporting of the audits done and explanations of any discrepancies and how they were dealt with.

 

[slotplayer]

It's just not the deposits though... Casinos/Programs can work ALL kinds of trickery.

I suppose the way to ensure legitimacy would be...

Player >> Middleman >>> Casino

Casino (bonuses, comps, deposits, withdrawals) >> Middleman

Middleman >> Affiliate Program

Great in theory BUT seriously how many programs/casinos would agree to this... my guess none.

yes, they'd find a way around it no doubt.

 

[Lloyd Apter]

Nothing here is new. Casinos aren't new and auditing isn't new. Just need to do the jobs properly.

 

[Kadabra]

Player >> Middleman >>> Casino

Exactly. This is the only solution. No later database auditing of any kind will be able to track various loopholes the casinos use. The untaging which is commonly used is quite simple to track, but there are so many ways. Randomly not passing the tag, certain not tracking pages, moving players to sister casinos, untagging just the top 1% of the players, and so on.

By the way, what about pixel tracking? Then you just audit thing on your end and that's it, no?

 

[falseadoom]

Moving players to sister casinos is a big issue when they do not tag. Rewards is real bad about doing this.