Active Players + Unique Depositors not working

[Miles_Videoslots]

Not as simple as that I'm afraid not when you have 1900 games + 50 Software providers , Pay gaming Licenses and Tax in Multiple jurisdictions its just not as easy as you think its not like the US facing casino .Yes there are shelf bought products that we could have implemented but the owners here want things done in-house and so we have to wait until we have the correct resources its just that simple .. the day will come when I can come back here and say I told you so and show you a system that has what we have all been asking for ... its just going to take time and for that I apologize but will stand by the fact that there is nothing shady going on here as |Casinomeister will attest to and so may others .100,s of affiliates work with us daily that have the same opinions why is that its because they want to work with us knowing that we are not shady, we have a great product and we look after their players .. I'm truly sorry this is taking as long as this and understand your frustrations but for now it is what it is and we have to live with it

 

[gobo]

Why don't you just tell us exactly how Net Revenue is calculated? That does not take time, developers or resources. The fact is, that it's shady that you don't want to tell us that. You are hiding something, otherwise you would have told us already.

 

[Miles_Videoslots]

We have it listed on our T & C as

4.3 Calculation and Payment
During the term of the agreement, we will pay you commission on a Revenue Share basis, based on Income generated by Your referred players and through the continued promotion of Videoslots.com products and services. Your Revenue Share is calculated from the casino’s earnings of Your referred players minus Our game license fee, casino bonuses, operational costs, jackpot fees, regulator taxes, bank fees and chargebacks.

We are working on trying to show you a better breakdown of these costs in our reporting and this too is adding to the slow pace of the progress but it will get there

 

[gobo]

We have it listed on our T & C as

4.3 Calculation and Payment
During the term of the agreement, we will pay you commission on a Revenue Share basis, based on Income generated by Your referred players and through the continued promotion of Videoslots.com products and services. Your Revenue Share is calculated from the casino’s earnings of Your referred players minus Our game license fee, casino bonuses, operational costs, jackpot fees, regulator taxes, bank fees and chargebacks.

We are working on trying to show you a better breakdown of these costs in our reporting and this too is adding to the slow pace of the progress but it will get there

I guess we all have read the T & C but they leave out a few variables. You have been long enough in this industry that you get what we are asking for - please don't pretend. We want to know how high these fees are. Without them, it is just about impossible to know how we split the revenue. We have no idea of what X% revenue share means if we don't know all the fees. Don't you agree?

If you don't want to say how the Net Rev is calculated, just say so and accept the bad reputation (rogueness). But don't pretend that you are giving us information when you are in fact not.

 

[AussieDave]

@Miles_Videoslots - Agreed those T&C's need editing... they've forgot to add:

• Travel expenses;
• Daily coffees and after work drinks;
• Board room catering etc;
• Staff wages etc;
• Office equipement;
• Office leasing;
• And I'm sure a plethora of other BS (shady) deductions!

If you don't want to say how the Net Rev is calculated, just say so and accept the bad reputation (rogueness). But don't pretend that you are giving us information when you are in fact not.

Miles, your credibility is taking a major nose dive here, each and every time you sprout more BS excuses

 

[slotplayer]

We have it listed on our T & C as

4.3 Calculation and Payment
During the term of the agreement, we will pay you commission on a Revenue Share basis, based on Income generated by Your referred players and through the continued promotion of Videoslots.com products and services. Your Revenue Share is calculated from the casino’s earnings of Your referred players minus Our game license fee, casino bonuses, operational costs, jackpot fees, regulator taxes, bank fees and chargebacks.

We are working on trying to show you a better breakdown of these costs in our reporting and this too is adding to the slow pace of the progress but it will get there

Don't most programs have similar fees?

 

[KasinoKing]

Don't most programs have similar fees?

Yes they do.
The point is, Videoslots used to show the € amount of each of these fees + other things too, like total € of deposits...
Now they show affiliates diddly-squat!

KK

 

[AussieDave]

Don't most programs have similar fees?

Yes most do, but the difference between those programs and VS affiliates is... If the breakdown of those fees are NOT in their T&C's, then most 'other' programs have no qualms in providing that information to their affiliate partners.

In the case of VS (as KK points out), they used to display "these fees + other things too". However they now don't. When asked (as you can see from the replies by Miles), they play semantics, and stay tighted lipped

Could the VS affiliate program be any more shady???!!!

 

[gobo]

Don't most programs have similar fees?

I would say no. 25% rev share at one program can equal to 50% at another after all fees and deductions has been made. There is no standardized revenue share model in the industry. Ask all your programs for the calculation and you will be surprised to see that the calculation looks different. I think that the fees used to be similar in the industry long time ago but not anymore. The programs have realized that they can deduct different fees in order to earn more (cut costs). Instead of lowering the rev share (what affiliates usually sees) they have added/increased more/different fees that make the deals look the same but in fact are not.

So in Videoslots case, I suspect they don't want to reveal this information because of one (or more) of these reasons:
1. That the fees are much higher than other programs. Unfair deductions.
2. By not revealing the fees they can "shave" as much as they want because nobody can dispute that you are earning less than you are entitled to.
3. They can increase the fees whenever they want since the terms & conditions are very vague by saying "Our game license fee" + "Operational costs". They don't have to give us notice about this since they are not stated in the T&C. Do we pay 100% of the license fees? It seems so, according to the T&C. But we can't be sure because they don't want to explain the terms to us. The want to keep it a secret.

All of the above alternatives goes hand in hand with not showing the stats to the affiliates. By not showing they can deduct whatever they want because it's all according to the vague terms & conditions.

If this is not shady/scammy/rogue behavior I don't know what is. And because of this, I really can't see why they should be a certified casino here at AGD or elsewhere. They are ROGUE!

 

[gobo]

And yeah, Miles might have super good intentions and wants to change program for the better. But actions speak louder than words and until we see a real change with real transparency I think they should be stripped their certification everywhere. They should be treated like any other rogue program = stay away! That is why it is important that we have these discussions in public. So that everyone can see what is really going on there.

And Miles likes to talk about their good reputation at Casinomeister. Want to move this discussion over to their site as well and we'll see what they think about the matter?

A simple thing like explaining all the fees makes Videoslots uncomfortable. There is really no good/valid reason to hide this information from us since we have a partnership. We know it, Videoslots knows it.

 

[slotplayer]

Yes most do, but the difference between those programs and VS affiliates is... If the breakdown of those fees are NOT in their T&C's, then most 'other' programs have no qualms in providing that information to their affiliate partners.

In the case of VS (as KK points out), they used to display "these fees + other things too". However they now don't. When asked (as you can see from the replies by Miles), they play semantics, and stay tighted lipped

Could the VS affiliate program be any more shady???!!!

I remember seeing the old stats screens posted.
tbh, I was just being a little sarcastic. I guess my point was (to Miles) these are typical expenses with other programs yet the VS earning are significantly less.

 

[AussieDave]

my point was (to Miles) these are typical expenses with other programs yet the VS earning are significantly less.

Totally agree mate. But as well as WE all know, with other programs, we still earn decent commissions.

With VS and ALL their (shady) deductions, these fees/deductions add up to between 85 - 96% subtracted from GGR. Which, as well all know is absolute absurd. It seems like affiliates are carrying most, if not ALL the operational running costs of the VS empire. Whilst delivering 85% or more of their player base.

It's the ruse of the decade...

The owners of VS must be rotfltgo, while Miles posts excuses for their scamming ways. Frankly, that's exactly what it is (a scam).

When a program removes backend aff info, which accounts for player earnings data etc, and also refuses to divulge ALL the monetary GGR deductions, then what else can it be, other than a means to steal affiliates commissions.

What really sticks in my throat about ALL this. Once again, decent affiliate folks, have had their trust, and years of loyalty abused. It's akin to VS giving these people the BIRD every month.

Then Miles comes here to speak VS crap. That's like rubbing salt into the wound, already sliced open by the VS affiliate program.

@Miles_Videoslots - to put this into context you may understand. Imagine you working ALL month, and then your boss say's to you, hey sorry Miles, we're not paying you this month, even though you've delivered, we have to deduct fees, and expenses from your rightful earnings... Start thinking along those lines, and maybe you'll have compassion for affiliates caught up in the mess!!!

I don't promote VS, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit idle and watch this crap play out, anymore. I don't post to DOCH much these days. But maybe I should run a few blogs about the VS affiliate program. Google simply adores DOCH...just sayin.

 

[KasinoKing]

I just want to make clear, that although I have been very critical of Videoslots' reporting system, I do NOT think they are actually doing anything shady. I trust them as much as any other similar operator.

BUT I simply can not accept the reporting system they now have in place. Since I started promoting them, they have downgraded the reports twice, despite repeated promises to IMPROVE them.
THAT is what has me pissed-off more than anything.

And exactly what I warned they would happen has happened; by NOT showing affs all the fees in detail, no-one will believe just how high they are and will cast doubt on the honesty & integrity of the operator.
To me, their actions (or lack of actions) are simply insane.

I gave VS until the end of March to give a firm date for a new system (which MUST be soon and MUST include all the necessary fields of data) or I would start reducing their exposure on my sites... One day left!

KK

 

[gobo]

I just want to make clear, that although I have been very critical of Videoslots' reporting system, I do NOT think they are actually doing anything shady. I trust them as much as any other similar operator.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the motive is behind hiding all the stats for the affiliates?

 

[AussieDave]

I just want to make clear, that although I have been very critical of Videoslots' reporting system, I do NOT think they are actually doing anything shady.

Not singling you out here KK, but find the above statment odd, to say the least. To me, it reads a bit too much like a retraction of sorts.

There's no denying VS as a casino, is highly valued by players. They have every reason to be happy. And, VS as a casino, holds an impressive rank over at CM, which is a player forum. So one would expect that high rank from the caliber of site which CasinoMeister is, and a casino player forum, as such.

Although the VS aff program is a catalyst for promoting the VS Casino Brand, the aff program, isn't the casino. Just like AGD isn't a casino player forum.

Hence the two entities, while they share a common denominator, both are polars apart when it comes to their business mandate.

The above is mostly based on opinion. And, opinions are alway open to debate. However, facts are facts. And they can't be debated/changed.

So, lets look as some facts regarding the VS aff program:

• Hiding/removal of player stats;
• Multiple promises, all broken (even the CEO promised you KK, at the CM pub meet, to look into this ASAP. 7 weeks on, still nothing);
• Point blank refusal to answer questions relating to GGR deductions, info affiliates have a right to know;
• GGR deductions which well and truly exceed anything I've ever seen in 17 years as an affiliate. Only times I've seen anything comparable, was from rogue operators.

That's a just few of the "facts", of the current modus operandi, and status qou at the VS affiliate program. You yourself KK, stated some where around here that your players are dropping at least 10,000GBP+ a month, but your earning sweet F#ck ALL. Other trusted/respect affiliates are also singing the same tune, from the same book

Just those by themselves scream 100% non-transperent, and shady as...just sayin.

Reiterating my opening point... to why I find your post odd.

 

[KasinoKing]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the motive is behind hiding all the stats for the affiliates?

It can only be a political decision from the owners/management/powers-that-be. One thing is for sure, they didn't "accidentally forget" to include at the relevant data fields when they made the new reporting system!

By giving affiliates all the facts & figures they are basically making them public for anyone to see - including their competitors. Maybe they decided that they wanted to keep this information confidential...?
I can understand that up to a point, but when the affiliate/operator partnership is based almost entirely on trust, transparency in the reporting is just about the only thing that earns and retains that trust.

@ Aussie Dave: I have never said "I think VS are ripping me off" - so no retraction here.

It's a bit like when players who lose start saying "I didn't win, therefore the games are rigged by the casino". Any level-headed person knows they don't NEED to cheat their players, the house edge alone ensures the casinos win in the long run.
Same with affiliates - the casino is making money and I am getting a (small) slice of their profits - they don't NEED to cheat their affiliates to make their money. The risk of getting caught cheating is just one I don't think VS or any other UK/EU licenced casino would take.
Maybe I am being naive - but that is my opinion.

However, I do still want to SEE the full breakdown of fees & figures to ensure my trust is justified.
When they did used to show them, I was shocked at how high some of the fees were, but at least then I could see WHY the NGR ended up being a hell of a lot lower than the total deposits. Now it's just a complete mystery.

At the end of the day, despite all the assurances from Miles that action will be taken, I still don't think it's very likely that any changes to the reporting (if they ever come) will be the full and comprehensive ones I am asking for.
Then affiliates will have to decide: Am I going to trust these guys regardless and carry on promoting them? Or just give them the boot?
For me personally that is going to be a VERY hard decision

KK

 

[Kristine]

Same with affiliates - the casino is making money and I am getting a (small) slice of their profits - they don't NEED to cheat their affiliates to make their money. The risk of getting caught cheating is just one I don't think VS or any other UK/EU licenced casino would take.
Maybe I am being naive - but that is my opinion.
KK

What you are saying is logical and actually its not really a secret anyways because anyone can create a test player account and a test affiliate account to figure out the base deductions.

 

[gobo]

We are back online Miles, feel free to reply to the questions.

 

[AussieDave]

its not really a secret anyways because anyone can create a test player account and a test affiliate account to figure out the base deductions.

No one should have to open test accounts, period. VS should be accountable and 100%transparent. Being more than happy to state the exact monetary fee deductions. These should also be in the T&C's.

Instead what does VS choose do?

They continue to hide player data from affiliates. Then, when challeged, Miles attempts blow smoke up affiliate's backsides, stating they (VS) need more time. What a load of bollocks that is... How long has it been now? 2 months, 3 months since Miles commenced at VS, and nothing has changed.

@Miles_Videoslots - I don't envy your position at VS. I wouldn't want your job there. But this continued dodging, swerving and ducking questions with semantics, or bluntly refusing the answers, isn't doing your repuation as a trusted AM any good... just sayin!

 

[Engineer]

It is pretty weird that they would go out of their way to remove data from the reports that was there before.

And a couple of years ago, I thought it was fishy when they started demanding to see passports and utility bills before paying affiliate commissions -- as if affiliates were "customers" of theirs -- which we are NOT.

Do they still do this?

Can you imagine demanding to see the Google CEO's passport and utility bill before paying your Adwords bill? LOL!