Rivalwide Progressive Issue - Rogue Poll.

[NDN]

It's better to have 5-6 casinos that work like 3dice than 150 or so rivals with a new one added every week. They have done a fantastic job scaring off US customers - the affiliates are already paying for it and will pay even more if the rivals contine.



But will Rival love affiliates after the recent incidents? That's what you forgot about...

Rival has between 20-30 brands (nowhere near 150) and as an affiliate I am grateful to have more than 5-6 choices to choose from when deciding who to promote.

They have done a fantastic job converting U.S. traffic and they have been a reliable group since day one (a rarity in this industry).

You're entitled to your own opinions and I respect that. Please do the same for me.

 

[nitro]

Rival has between 20-30 brands (nowhere near 150) and as an affiliate I am grateful to have more than 5-6 choices to choose from when deciding who to promote.

What i tried to say that quality is far more important than quantity. And Rival is all about quantity.

They have done a fantastic job converting U.S. traffic and they have been a reliable group since day one (a rarity in this industry).

They have the lowest conversion rates in the industry and have spoiled the US gamblers with their ND bonuses; The vast majority of people just takes the bonus and runs and is programmed that since ND bonuses seems to be everywhere there is no need to deposit. You are probably not aware how much traffic you have already missed just because of this stupid bonus policy.

As far as their reliabality goes they have lower weekly withdrawal limits than a slot machine in your local pub, one of the worst bonus programs around which causes mainly a lot of hassle to the majority of people, a centralized good for nothing customer service, usually quite long > 5 days withdrawal times - just to name a few! - and as cream of the crop some of them don't let you deposit the amount you want if you don't take a bonus(read: deposit penalty) because this is a good way to keep a deposit and run a rip off operation and not a casino.

As said the interesting thing here is not the traffic that you've got but the one that you've missed.

You're entitled to your own opinions and I respect that. Please do the same for me.

 

[belgamo]

Well this is awesome news! ---------


Hi Everyone,

I have some news for you regarding the progressive affiliate deductions.

First of all I want to thank all of your for your patience in this matter. I know it's a heated topic on the forums and a subject of much debate (and understandably so).

Until this point we have been waiting for Rival to make a decision as to how past progressive deductions (Pre-March 2010 ) would be handled. This change was to be Rival white label - wide and was going to be based on whatever the majority of white labels agreed on.

This morning we received an email from Rival stating that "After careful consideration, it has been decided that a unified response is not required in this specific event. Each operator can decide how they want to refund affiliates as they see fit."

Because of this, we at Jet Set Marketing have decided to refund all progressive deductions from March 01, 2009 to Feb 28th, 2010 for both Paradise8 and Cocoa Casino. We feel that because affiliates were unaware that these deductions were taking place, this option is the most fair to all of you. This solution is what we have been pushing for since discussions started but until now the decision was not ours to make, nor to announce.

We still have not been notified as to how the progressive system will function from March forward as far as affiliates are concerned, but we are anticipating a positive solution that we can all be happy with.

Again, thank you for your patience in this matter and I hope to be writing to you soon with more good news.

Sincerely,

Jason W,
Jet Set Marketing,
Paradise 8 | Cocoa Casino

 

[dendrite]

Conversions, of course, depend on your visitor demographics, the way your site looks and feels, the search terms visitors use to find your site etc.

For me, Rival has given me the best conversions by far over the past year. In fact, my best Rival casinos give me a four-fold better conversion rate than my best RTG does. I know for others that isn't the case, but that's the way it's turned out for me

In my opinion, the fewer companies there are in the US market, the more dangerous it becomes for affiliates. If choice is severely restricted, then the casinos have you over a barrel.

There is no doubt in my mind that if there was only one single US facing casino out there to promote, they would be tempted to offer only very low rev share, they would be taking progressives contributions, enforcing negative carryover and possibly applying minimum sign-up terms too

Having plenty of casinos and softwares we can choose from is very important, imo. That is why I am hoping Rival step up to the plate and allow the AMs to give affiliates the progressives money back. I think most good AMs want to do exactly that

So, I am now waiting to see what happens.

I'm optimistic that the best AMs out there will be doing the right thing and refunding these progressive contributions

 

[dendrite]

Just saw your post, Belgamo - great stuff!

 

[Guard Dog]

That's great news from the 400 Group! Thanks Jason and thanks Belgamo for posting.

March and forward are my concerns along with how affiliates are responsible for processor confiscations as well. Those are the only remaining issues, but it sounds like it may be a positive outcome afterall.

I just hope the affiliate programs are not getting shafted by Rival and having to cover ALL costs. Rival should be covering some of this stuff, IMO. Especially the processor issue - which is THEIR problem.

 

[dendrite]

and as if my magic, more news...

Dear Affiliates,

After weeks of discussions with Rival and other white labels in the network, it’s been agreed that each program can decide which action to take when it comes to previously deducted progressive contributions. After studying the situation, and concluding that this was a retroactive change in affiliate contracts, Superior Share will be returning all previous deductions of progressive contributions. We will credit back all past affiliate progressive contributions from February 2009 until March 2010. A more detailed timeline for this is forthcoming.

We are still working on the final details of the progressive system going forward. We have discussed this with many of you, we’ve taken your feedback, and we’re working closely with Rival to come up with a system that will benefit both parties, you as our partner, and our operation as well.

We will be giving you further information regarding the contributions reimbursement schedule and full details on the new system as soon as they become available.

Master Card Issue:

For all of you who were affected by the MasterCard issue, we are extending to you a 10% EXTRA Commission on ALL your new signups during the months of April, May and June of the current year. We encourage you to upgrade your marketing campaigns, so you can better take advantage of this unique incentive. Along with further notices this month, we will be releasing our newest marketing materials and exclusive promotions, so you can better design your campaigns.

Once again, we appreciate your feedback and understanding on these matters. It hasn’t been easy but we know that a serious consideration of the current problems, together with the feedback of our valuable partners, will bring favorable solutions for all.

Thank you and we’ll be in touch very soon.

With best regards,

Paul Art

Affiliate Director
Superior Share Affiliate Program

 

[slotplayer]

There is no doubt in my mind that if there was only one single US facing casino out there to promote, they would be tempted to offer only very low rev share, they would be taking progressives contributions, enforcing negative carryover and possibly applying minimum sign-up terms too

We see those now. The impression I get is:
I don't see how programs can continue to sustain paying a 30%+ commission without mitigating costs some how (especially with this new economy and the recent mc problems) unless they incorporate some cost cutting measures like nco, bundling, progressive contribs, wagering, minimums or a sub-set thereof. Notice its the programs that have nco or a wagering model that can afford to open new casinos with few exceptions.

But then it's only an observation and I really am clueless as to what goes on behind the scenes.

 

[dendrite]

We see those now.

Yes, we see those now, but we don't see ALL the programs doing it.

I think it's healthy to have a choice

For example, CWC enforce negative carry-over. They have some great casinos, but if we want we can choose to promote c-planet, or Winpalace, or any number of other groups that don't enforce it

Competition means choice, imo

 

[nitro]

In my opinion, the fewer companies there are in the US market, the more dangerous it becomes for affiliates. If choice is severely restricted, then the casinos have you over a barrel.

In my opinion the less gamblers are scared off by a joke operation like rival the more money will flow towards the affiliates. If choice is severely restricted to companies like 3dice or 32red you can be assured that you'll get a fair treatment and not get screwed over constantly and therefore there is no need to consider similar measures that are applied right now to outfits a la rival.

 

[nitro]

I think it's healthy to have a choice

Absolutely. Get rid of 2/3 of the rivals that are now on the scene and let the rest run like 3dice and no one will play in CWC Casinos...

 

[nitro]

March and forward are my concerns along with how affiliates are responsible for processor confiscations as well. Those are the only remaining issues, but it sounds like it may be a positive outcome afterall.

It will be a positive outcome but you have to watch out for the rival guard dogs and consider them your enemy.

 

[dendrite]

If choice is severely restricted to companies like 3dice or 32red you can be assured that you'll get a fair treatment and not get screwed over constantly and therefore there is no need to consider similar measures that are applied right now to outfits a la rival.

- 32red does not accept US players

- 3dice doesn't seem to be taking on new affiliates

Not much good for those of us that promote to the US market and haven't been invited to be part of the 3dice program

I know what you mean, though, they are both excellent programs, if you lucky enough to be able to promote them to your visitors

 

[nitro]

- 32red does not accept US players

- 3dice doesn't seem to be taking on new affiliates

Not much good for those of us that promote to the US market and haven't been invited to be part of the 3dice program

Therefore it is necessary to make rival behave like that because this will be the preferable option to destruction.

 

[bonustreak]

Please lets try to keep this thread on the topic of Rival brands.

 

[nitro]

Some tactic advice (that is i hope on topic):

What neither the industry nor the affiliates are necessarily aware of is that the every outfit that recruits their customers mainly over the internet is far more dependent on the affiliates than the other way round because they can control the public opinion easily. If this could be proven the cheating of affiliates would stop because it would be too dangerous to mess around with them and they could be quite useful for many other things too...

So if there is a problem like here with rival the first step is of course taking down the banners and stop sending them the traffic. Since not everyone will be willing to do that some activists must appear on the scene that constantly keep the collaborateurs under pressure via whatever means they like and therefore aim to stop to send any traffic in the end. For psychological reasons it is quite useful to keep a handful of examples of the desired behaviour alive - like slotoscash - to make the other rivals aware what is expected from them.

When the first casinos start to give in or spell threats it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to intensify the pressure to the maximum of the available means even if an agreement could be already reached at this stage and all the sheep's instincts tell that this is the right thing to do because due to psychological reasons you will get for that what you have done above a knife in the back whenever an opportunity should arise. This is not going to happen once the opposite side realizes that it is completely at the mercy of the aff community so the way to go is to get them there.

This can be accomoplished via manipulating the public opinion with for everyone visible warnings (do not to play in rival casino because of this and that and preferably financial troubles) on the websites and especially constant propaganda activity on all available internet gambling forums. Considering the size and the diversion of the aff community this isn't really much of a work but has to be done very consistently to be effective. For this reason it is necessary that quite a few activists hang into it and constantly pressure the lazy and the collaborateurs and keep therefore the momentum alive.

If this is executed properly the rivals have ZERO chance to stay alive because the tactic above targets the existing customer base and no matter whatever they may come up with if they don't get new players via the aff route and their existing customer base is constantly under fire the amount of people playing there will dwindle to negligible amounts.

The aim here is not to crush out casinos but resolve the issue at hand without having to fear that a revolt is going to happen and go even further and try to change rival's company policies so they stop to produce crap casinos like on a assembly line.

This is only going to happen if all the parties involved have some life changing experience and this can be accomplished by getting all of them to the brink (and beyond) bankrupcy and then release the pressure. So the best thing here is to wait until 3-4 rivals go belly up because this will make sure that the rest and the software company will have an experience they'll never forget and initiate the desired process. The essential thing here is no matter what they say or not say to uphold the pressure until this is going to happen.

If a operation like this is successful i am quite sure the GP issue could be resolved without the use of force and due to a shift of power something like that would be very unlikely to arise in the future.

But far more important is that an organized aff community is in the position to effectively pressure all the cowboy outfits and get them out of business should it become necessary.

The question here is if the sheep wins and stops this kind of process after a handful of visible successes (and gets kicked in the ass later on - that is sure) or the anti-sheep and goes with this process to the end.

Depending on the outcome the position of the affs in the industy will either get worse or way better and this is the real issue here.

I hope the stuff written here makes sense and is not to esoteric...

 

[NDN]

It appears as though most Rival programs have decided to refund progressive fees from March 01, 2009 to February 28th, 2010. Does anyone know where they got their starting date from? Can anyone confirm that March 01, 2009 is when they started deducting these fees and deductions did not happen prior to this date? I believe they had progressive games in place prior to this date (although I am not 100% certain).

Anyhow, here is what we have learned so far (broken down by group):

400 Affiliates

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: Refunding All Fees From March 01, 2009 to Feb 28th, 2010. No decision on how they will be handling fees from March 2010 onward.

My Take: It's great that they are refunding the progressive fees. This is the right thing to do and I am glad they have realized that. I am still concerned about how they will handle the fees going forward. If they choose to charge the affiliates these fees on players they have sent prior to March 2010 then it is still a retroactive change and that is not acceptable.

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: No comments/updates on this subject that I am aware of.

My Take: Unless they take full responsibility for their own processor issues and pay their affiliates their commissions on any "lost deposits" due to processor seizures then I will not be promoting them.

Igaming.pro (Tradition Casino)

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: Refunding All Fees From October 2009 to Feb 28th 2010. No decision on how they will be handling fees from March 2010 onward.

My Take: It's great that they are refunding the progressive fees. This is the right thing to do and I am glad they have realized that. I am still concerned about how they will handle the fees going forward. If they choose to charge the affiliates these fees on players they have sent prior to March 2010 then it is still a retroactive change and that is not acceptable.

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: No comments/updates on this subject that I am aware of.

My Take: Unless they take full responsibility for their own processor issues and pay their affiliates their commissions on any "lost deposits" due to processor seizures then I will not be promoting them.

Spin Time Partners

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: This is what Spin Time has to say with regards to their progressive fees:
At SpinTime Partners, our calculations are as follows : bets - win - promo/bonus -charge back - progressive fees, so when your players win a jackpot and plays it back into the casino, affiliates will reap all their % rewards so this excludes us from the Affiliate Guard Dog thread.

Don't want to pay the Progressive Fees? We can do a change for you but when a player wins and plays back their jackpot winnings, you will not be awarded the commission.

My Take: I'm still a little confused on how their calculation benefits the affiliate and how it differs from any other Rival group. Can someone please help clarify this? Regardless, I appreciate that they are giving their affiliates some options here.

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: Covering all Mastercard funds and not passing on any costs to affiliates.

My Take: This is exactly what every Rival group should be doing.

Superior Share

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: Refunding All Fees From February 2009 until March 2010. No decision on how they will be handling fees from March 2010 onward.

My Take: It's great that they are refunding the progressive fees. This is the right thing to do and I am glad they have realized that. I am still concerned about how they will handle the fees going forward. If they choose to charge the affiliates these fees on players they have sent prior to March 2010 then it is still a retroactive change and that is not acceptable.

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: They appear to be going forward with passing off this cost onto their affiliates. They are offering 10% extra on NEW signups from April-June for the affiliates who were affected by the Mastercard issue.

My Take: This is exactly what every Rival group SHOULD NOT be doing. Affiliates should not be paying for their processor issues. It's insulting that a program is pushing these costs onto their affiliates and then trying to sound like they are doing us a favor by offering extra commission for a few months.

Sloto'Cash

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: Affiliates Do Not Incur These Fees From Sloto.

My Take: Fantastic

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: Sloto has their own processing and is not affected by the Mastercard issue.

My Take: Fantastic

Affiliate Wide (Box24)

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: Affiliates Do Not Incur These Fees From Affiliate Wide.

My Take: Fantastic

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: Box24 has their own processing and is not affected by the Mastercard issue.

My Take: Fantastic

Royal Apollo

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: Refunding All Fees From March 01, 2009 to Feb 28th, 2010. No decision on how they will be handling fees from March 2010 onward.

My Take: It's great that they are refunding the progressive fees. This is the right thing to do and I am glad they have realized that. I am still concerned about how they will handle the fees going forward. If they choose to charge the affiliates these fees on players they have sent prior to March 2010 then it is still a retroactive change and that is not acceptable.

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: No comments/updates on this subject that I am aware of.

My Take: Unless they take full responsibility for their own processor issues and pay their affiliates their commissions on any "lost deposits" due to processor seizures then I will not be promoting them.

23 Partners (Planet23 Casino)

Issue #1 - Progressive Fees: This is what 23 Partners has to say with regards to their progressive fees:
Planet23 would like to inform you that the recent changes with Rival Gaming Progressive calculations will not effect our affiliates and all differences and deductions due to this change will be added to your affiliate account or will be paid directly to you via Planet23.

My Take: Fantastic!

Issue #2 - Mastercard Funds Confiscation: They pledge no deductions related to processor issues.

My Take: Perfect!

As of now, the above groups are the only ones that I am aware of that have made official statements. I expect we'll get more updates on Monday and throughout the week.

 

[Engineer]

Great summary, NDN. Thanks for putting that together.

Does anyone know where they got their starting date from? Can anyone confirm that March 01, 2009 is when they started deducting these fees and deductions did not happen prior to this date? I believe they had progressive games in place prior to this date (although I am not 100% certain).

I don't know exactly when they started deducting progressive fees; however, I do know when each progressive jackpot was launched. On Rival Jackpots (a page on my site), I wrote that the first progressive slot was launched on September 23, 2008.

Rival launched its first progressive slot machine, Major Moolah, on September 23, 2008. Rival's second progressive slot, Strike Gold, made its debut on October 20, 2008, and then One Million Reels BC was released on January 12, 2009. Money Magic, Rival's first 5 reel progressive slot, was launched on June 2, 2009.

 

[NDN]

Anyone else getting the impression that Rival is dragging this out in hopes that we forget about it? I really thought we'd hear from more program by now.

I hope they realize that several affiliates (myself included) have had them off their sites for over a week now and they are losing traffic/players because of their slow response.

On a lighter note, I received this from Slots Of Fortune:

I am very glad to let you know, that I just joined SlotsofFortune, as Affiliate Manager. It's great to see, that you are already an affiliate of it!

I would have liked to renew my partnership with you in a different manner, rather than addressing the Progressive Jackpot contribution issue, however it's a very important matter, and I am discussing with the management the way it will be addressed.

I will be updating you on this issue, and in the meantime, please feel free to contact me with any SlotsofFortune of Rival question.

Again, I am very glad to find you here, and I am looking forward to chatting to you soon.

Best regards,

Natalie Stewart.

Now normally that wouldn't be much of an update, but I absolutely love Natalie and she will do anything she can to make sure her affiliates are happy. I'm very VERY pleased to see Natalie back in the game!

 

[Guard Dog]

Rival is definitely dragging their feet. I am putting together a complete documentation of this issue and hope to post and send out a newsletter today.

Re: Natalie - I got a similar email and was happy to see Natalie take over. She is an awesome AM and they should be more than happy to have her.