Active Players + Unique Depositors not working

[Guard Dog]

Let's not worry about the other posts and keep it on topic. Ali is answering questions, has offered up Alison to break down stats. I know they are focusing on getting stats fixed. I am working with all to help keep things moving along in any manner that I can. The plan is to watch VS put up a better affiliate system than any other program has (similar to what they had, hopefully better) and get them back to the status they were at - which was very trusted.

 

[Ali Atam]

Thank you, Ali! Very efficient of you.

While you are here I would appreciate some answers to the following questions:

1. So let's take a made up example just to be clear:
A player signs up through an affiliate link. He does not use any signup bonus. He deposits €10 only. He goes to the slot Gonzo's Quest and makes a single spin for €10 and loses it all. No Chargebacks, no bank fees, no regulatory taxes. What is my commission in this case? I understand that different game developers charge different license fees. But in this case, what would my commission be if my Rev Share deal is 25%?

2. I have not played at Videoslots myself but I have heard that the players can not play with their deposit bonus after deposit but that they have to wager in order for it to be released. Is this true?

3. If question #2 is true - what happens if a player never gets the bonus? Does the bonus amount get deducted from our earnings anyway or does it only get deducted if/when a player gets it?

4. What is the approximate range of the license fee? Again, I understand the percentage varies from developer to developer, but we still need some kind of range here.

Thanks!

You are welcome Gobo, please find my answers below :

1. There will of course be bank fees as player made a deposit, bank fees goes from 1 – 9.5% depending on option. But as you write “no bank fees” I left it out.

• We need to know how much the customer would receive in cashback. Cashback is based on wager. Lets say the customer wagered €10 and the game has a RTP of 96%. The cashback would be around €0.075 then.
• We also need to know if the customer managed to get a pay-out from our weekly casino race. But with a wager of €10 that is not likely. So race pay-out would be €0.
• Then we have our operational/admin cost of 25% which covers our external costs €2.5.
• Gonzo’s Quest we pay around 14% for €1.4.

€10 - €0.075 - €2.5 – €1.4 = €6,025 x 25% = €1.51

With the above example you would make around €1.51 on 25% revshare.

I also wish to point out that our players are loyal to us, we have one of the longest life time player value in the industry. We don’t make big bux in the short period, but in the long run (12 – 24 months) you probably make more with us than any other.

2- Yes, but wager requirement is only 20x which probably is one of the lowest in the industry. Plus, its based on RTP of the game. So if you play a game with 96% rtp 100% of the wager is added to the bonus requirement. A game with 97% only 75% is added, but a game with 95% then 125% is added. So you complete the bonus faster by playing games with a lower RTP. Please PM me so that I can send you the link to read more about it if you like to (Not allowed to post links)

3- The bonus is deducted when the player gets it. Most players complete the wager requirement as it is so low.

4- 6% - 18%.

Regards,

 

[Ali Atam]

I've got a question Ali,

On the casino's cashback pages it states "Cashback is calculated on theoretical RTP minus operating costs."

Yet in the Aff Program T&C's it states:



That reads very much like your charging fees twice, one on players wagering (cashback), and that fee(s), is also being transfered to affiliates.

Hi AussieDave,

It's deducted from the player before it's calculated. We only deduct the paid out amount to the player from the affiliate. In other words, it is only deducted once.

Regards,

 

[Ali Atam]

Let's say they play a NetEnt game. RS should be something like 21%. A player that deposits € 100 and loses it all. That means that is deducted:

- € 5 transaction fee
- € 21 NetEnt rev share
- € 25 admin fee

That means € 51 deducted. If he takes a bonus of € 100, another € 21 is deducted, which means € 72 in total. Remains € 38 or € 49 (if the player doesn't take a bonus). Of that I get like 25%. So, like € 9,50 of every € 100 or € 12,25 of every € 100.

If € 15 gaming tax is deducted for example there is € 23 or € 34 remaining, with means earning € 5,25 or € 8.50 of every € 100.

Any other costs that are deducted? Come on, this is not that difficult. I think think the guys that said that about 95% is deducted are quite right.

Hi Biti,

If a player loses €100 in a Netent game with €200 wager and has a 100% bonus up to €100 it would look as below and deposit is made with VISA card:


€100 GGR

• €1.5 approx. bank fee
• €14 approx. game provider fee
• €25 admin fee
• €10 bonus fee
• €0 race fee as wager is too low to reach score board
• €1.5 approx. cashback

= €49.oo


Please note that we do also offer CPA and Hybrid deals.

Regards,

 

[CygX1]

It's funny how quickly all of the questions are suddenly answered since the program has been put in the crooked corner. Even though Ali is addressing the points, I would not trust this program until everything has been straightened again and VideoSlots have proven to be a trustworthy affiliate program for an extended period.

 

[Ali Atam]

It's funny how quickly all of the questions are suddenly answered since the program has been put in the crooked corner. Even though Ali is addressing the points, I would not trust this program until everything has been straightened again and VideoSlots have proven to be a trustworthy affiliate program for an extended period.

Thanks for the feedback CygX1.

As I told the same thing to Andy earlier today, I believe putting us in the Rogue section today for removing the deposit stats probably 3 years ago was not the right thing to do. .Don't get me wrong, I am not debating removing deposits was the right thing to do in the first place but this information was always given if requested. And I can count probably over 20 casinos today which do not present these deposit amounts at all.

Plus, as far as I can see, this topic started due to a bug where active players were not visible for a period of time which I think it is also fixed. Yes, bugs do happen unfortunately but being rogue for that? I find it quite harsh but that's of course my opinion.

Regards,

 

[KasinoKing]

Thanks for the feedback CygX1.

As I told the same thing to Andy earlier today, I believe putting us in the Rogue section today for removing the deposit stats probably 3 years ago was not the right thing to do. .Don't get me wrong, I am not debating removing deposits was the right thing to do in the first place but this information was always given if requested. And I can count probably over 20 casinos today which do not present these deposit amounts at all.

I really appreciate all your answers in this thread... FINALLY someone is giving us some proper FACTS!

As you're new there you may not have known, that the deposit info was only removed from the stats last October when the new back-end went live (i.e. 6 months ago, not 3 years)

You may well be able to name 20 casinos who don't give deposits and other critical stats - but 20 out of an estimated 5,000 casinos online these days is not very many!
But no matter how many don't show this info, that doesn't make it RIGHT.
Full transparency is the only way you and other similar operators are going to earn affiliate's 100% trust.
Be the BEST - not just another "well I sort of think I can trust them..." operator.

{Edited to add} FYI, this is what the reporting used to look like...
The top one here was the original reporting - in this case from January 2015.
The one below is the first month of the second reporting system = June 2015. (NGR was -£845, hence my earnings (profit) = £0)
As you can see, most of the fees data fields were removed - but at least they did leave the Deposit stats... until October 2016.

KK

 

[Ali Atam]

Thanks for the feedback CygX1.

As I told the same thing to Andy earlier today, I believe putting us in the Rogue section today for removing the deposit stats probably 3 years ago was not the right thing to do. .Don't get me wrong, I am not debating removing deposits was the right thing to do in the first place but this information was always given if requested. And I can count probably over 20 casinos today which do not present these deposit amounts at all.

Plus, as far as I can see, this topic started due to a bug where active players were not visible for a period of time which I think it is also fixed. Yes, bugs do happen unfortunately but being rogue for that? I find it quite harsh but that's of course my opinion.

Regards,

Forgot to add

I really appreciate all your answers in this thread... FINALLY someone is giving us some proper FACTS!

As you're new there you may not have known, that the deposit info was only removed from the stats last October when the new back-end went live (i.e. 6 months ago, not 3 years)

You may well be able to name 20 casinos who don't give deposits and other critical stats - but 20 out of an estimated 5,000 casinos online these days is not very many!
But no matter how many don't show this info, that doesn't make it RIGHT.
Full transparency is the only way you and other similar operators are going to earn affiliate's 100% trust.
Be the BEST - not just another "well I sort of think I can trust them..." operator.

KK

Appreciated KasinoKing. I would also like to remind all of you that Miles has been with the company for really a very short time and he found himself in the middle of this long ongoing subject without all the facts but with the only intention to help. So I would like to give him the credit of handling this and it is quite understandable that there were some communication issues or delays as he is just very new

Just double checked the stats and you are right - Detailed statistics was removed 2-3 years ago. Deposit stats in October 2016.

We all completely agree with you - that full transparency is the only way . We know it and we are working towards it. As Miles said, it is in development and it is a top priority. And as I said earlier, until the automated report is in place, our affiliate department will be more than happy to provide any information you need if you wish to contact them on e-mail or Skype.

Regards,

 

[AussieDave]

It's deducted from the player before it's calculated.

We only deduct the paid out amount to the player from the affiliate. In other words, it is only deducted once.

That doesn't make any sense Ali...

• Operational costs are deducted from cashback (player);
• Operational costs are deducted from GGR (affiliate)

Both player and affiliate are being hit with operatoinal costs.

 

[gobo]

e

You are welcome Gobo, please find my answers below :

1. There will of course be bank fees as player made a deposit, bank fees goes from 1 – 9.5% depending on option. But as you write “no bank fees” I left it out.

• We need to know how much the customer would receive in cashback. Cashback is based on wager. Lets say the customer wagered €10 and the game has a RTP of 96%. The cashback would be around €0.075 then.
• We also need to know if the customer managed to get a pay-out from our weekly casino race. But with a wager of €10 that is not likely. So race pay-out would be €0.
• Then we have our operational/admin cost of 25% which covers our external costs €2.5.
• Gonzo’s Quest we pay around 14% for €1.4.

€10 - €0.075 - €2.5 – €1.4 = €6,025 x 25% = €1.51

With the above example you would make around €1.51 on 25% revshare.

I also wish to point out that our players are loyal to us, we have one of the longest life time player value in the industry. We don’t make big bux in the short period, but in the long run (12 – 24 months) you probably make more with us than any other.

2- Yes, but wager requirement is only 20x which probably is one of the lowest in the industry. Plus, its based on RTP of the game. So if you play a game with 96% rtp 100% of the wager is added to the bonus requirement. A game with 97% only 75% is added, but a game with 95% then 125% is added. So you complete the bonus faster by playing games with a lower RTP. Please PM me so that I can send you the link to read more about it if you like to (Not allowed to post links)

3- The bonus is deducted when the player gets it. Most players complete the wager requirement as it is so low.

4- 6% - 18%.

Regards,

Why €1.4 for Gonzo's Quest if we split the cost according to the Rev Share Deal? I have the feeling that we don't split the cost at all but that the affiliates pay 100% of the license fee. Correct me if I am wrong.

How do you know that you have the longest LTPV in the industry? I have been promoting you for a more than 24 months and I have seen a decrease in earnings since the initial months. This might be due to increased fees though (like the operational cost).

If a player loses €100 in a Netent game with €200 wager and has a 100% bonus up to €100 it would look as below and deposit is made with VISA card:


€100 GGR

• €1.5 approx. bank fee
• €14 approx. game provider fee
• €25 admin fee
• €10 bonus fee
• €0 race fee as wager is too low to reach score board
• €1.5 approx. cashback

= €49.oo

Again, why €14 in game provider fee? Should not this fee be shared according to the Rev Share percentage?

Thanks for the feedback CygX1.

As I told the same thing to Andy earlier today, I believe putting us in the Rogue section today for removing the deposit stats probably 3 years ago was not the right thing to do. .Don't get me wrong, I am not debating removing deposits was the right thing to do in the first place but this information was always given if requested. And I can count probably over 20 casinos today which do not present these deposit amounts at all.

Plus, as far as I can see, this topic started due to a bug where active players were not visible for a period of time which I think it is also fixed. Yes, bugs do happen unfortunately but being rogue for that? I find it quite harsh but that's of course my opinion.

For me it is rogue behavior to hide stuff from the affiliates - whether it is hiding stats or just not telling us how NGR is calculated. It don't think that you got moved to the rogue section just because you removed stats 3 years ago. You got moved to that section because of the sum of all your actions, broken promises, vague answers, evasions and move towards 0% transparency over the past weeks/months/years.
Nobody has ever explained to us why these stats were removed. We only got promises that "they will be up very soon again", "that they had to be removed in order to transit to the new system". Obviously, this was not the actual reason for removing the stats. We have yet to date heard any good reason why you would remove stats.

I have asked for detailed stats both online and on conferences without getting any. I have heard excuses like that you don't have them, that you are too busy to provide me with them, that the system can not export fees like that. All of this is just insane in my opinion.

Forgot to add

Appreciated KasinoKing. I would also like to remind all of you that Miles has been with the company for really a very short time and he found himself in the middle of this long ongoing subject without all the facts but with the only intention to help. So I would like to give him the credit of handling this and it is quite understandable that there were some communication issues or delays as he is just very new

Just double checked the stats and you are right - Detailed statistics was removed 2-3 years ago. Deposit stats in October 2016.

We all completely agree with you - that full transparency is the only way . We know it and we are working towards it. As Miles said, it is in development and it is a top priority. And as I said earlier, until the automated report is in place, our affiliate department will be more than happy to provide any information you need if you wish to contact them on e-mail or Skype.

Regards,

This is just not true. I have been asking for a breakdown of the NGR for many years (from different affiliate managers) both online and IRL at conferences without ever getting any.

The entire issue looks very obvious to me - when you got rogue-flagged you decided to change your strategy and share info. As Miles said, he is not in charge of things. He has just done what he has been told. I have a hard time imagining that you have not discussed this issue the past couple of weeks when we have asked him the same questions over and over again without getting any answers (regarding the NGR calculation). He has been in the industry long enough that he knew what we were asking for. He is not stupid.

Also, don't say it is a top priority because your actions the past weeks (months and years) says it really has not been your top priority at all. I really hope this rogue-mark worked as a wake-up call for you and that it now really is your top priority.

However, I am glad that we agree on that full transparency is the only way to go. If you manage to achieve that I will salute you and give you WAY more exposure on my network of sites. But you really have to prove yourself here and not just talk. Average will not do it for me. I want you to be a leader in transparency. Dare to take the lead in the industry and I promise you that you will come out on the other side and earn way more money than your competitors.

 

[CygX1]

@Ali Atam If you read through the threads about Video Slots from the past few months you will understand why this action was taken. As the other members pointed out, very simple but essential questions remained unanswered after crucial details had been removed from the statistics in late 2016. All of this could have -easily- been fixed ever since but many affiliates came to the impression that this was not supposed to happen anymore. This is particularly disturbing from an operator that has such a good reputation among the player communities. If other disreputable operators are doing the same, it does not make things any better.

Either way, I am confident most members here are glad to finally get answers. This should have been done a long time ago already.

 

[Ali Atam]

That doesn't make any sense Ali...

• Operational costs are deducted from cashback (player);
• Operational costs are deducted from GGR (affiliate)

Both player and affiliate are being hit with operatoinal costs.

Hi AussieDave,


Can you please give me a mathematical example of your theory?


From our view cashback is only deducted once. The operational cost for cashback don’t exist in the numbers. Its already deducted in the mathematical formal that is calculating how much the customer should receive and what the customer receives is deducted from the GGR before affiliate commission is calculated.

 

[bonustreak]

Thank you Ali for coming and addressing the issues.

 

[AussieDave]

Why €1.4 for Gonzo's Quest if we split the cost according to the Rev Share Deal?

I have the feeling that we don't split the cost at all but that the affiliates pay 100% of the license fee.

Correct me if I am wrong.

why €14 in game provider fee?

Should not this fee be shared according to the Rev Share percentage?

If fees etc are shared as claimed then that €14 should be (EG - if commision is 25%) €3.5o... NOT €14.

But like you gobo, I also have a gut feeling that affiliates are being hit for 100% of all cost associated with operating the VS casino et al. Otherwise how else can one explain the insaely high deductions, and the lowly commissions (if any) affiliates receive. Reiterating, 85 - 96% in GGR deductions is mental!

 

[AussieDave]

Can you please give me a mathematical example of your theory?

It's not a theory, I'm taking the words "operational cost(s)" stated in black-and-white words, both on the cashback page, and in the VS affiliate program T&C's. They're Video Slots words, not mine.

 

[slotplayer]

I really appreciate all your answers in this thread... FINALLY someone is giving us some proper FACTS!

As you're new there you may not have known, that the deposit info was only removed from the stats last October when the new back-end went live (i.e. 6 months ago, not 3 years)

You may well be able to name 20 casinos who don't give deposits and other critical stats - but 20 out of an estimated 5,000 casinos online these days is not very many!
But no matter how many don't show this info, that doesn't make it RIGHT.
Full transparency is the only way you and other similar operators are going to earn affiliate's 100% trust.
Be the BEST - not just another "well I sort of think I can trust them..." operator.

{Edited to add} FYI, this is what the reporting used to look like...
The top one here was the original reporting - in this case from January 2015.
The one below is the first month of the second reporting system = June 2015. (NGR was -£845, hence my earnings (profit) = £0)
As you can see, most of the fees data fields were removed - but at least they did leave the Deposit stats... until October 2016.

View attachment 1444

KK

so how do you get to the 92.37?

 

[slotplayer]

I'd like to see programs display the data to match how you'd do the math.

 

[Ali Atam]

If fees etc are shared as claimed then that €14 should be (EG - if commision is 25%) €3.5o... NOT €14.

But like you gobo, I also have a gut feeling that affiliates are being hit for 100% of all cost associated with operating the VS casino et al. Otherwise how else can one explain the insaely high deductions, and the lowly commissions (if any) affiliates receive. Reiterating, 85 - 96% in GGR deductions is mental!

We deduct the fees from the GGR which becomes the NGR which is shared accordingly to your deal. If the GGR is €500 and fees €100. The NGR is €400 which the affiliate commission is based on.

You can request a report from our affiliate team and check it yourself.

 

[Ali Atam]

It's not a theory, I'm taking the words "operational cost(s)" stated in black-and-white words, both on the cashback page, and in the VS affiliate program T&C's. They're Video Slots words, not mine.

Only actual bonus costs are deducted from the GGR. So if player is paid €10 cashback, then €10 is deducted from the GGR.

 

[Ali Atam]

e

Why €1.4 for Gonzo's Quest if we split the cost according to the Rev Share Deal? I have the feeling that we don't split the cost at all but that the affiliates pay 100% of the license fee. Correct me if I am wrong.

How do you know that you have the longest LTPV in the industry? I have been promoting you for a more than 24 months and I have seen a decrease in earnings since the initial months. This might be due to increased fees though (like the operational cost).





Again, why €14 in game provider fee? Should not this fee be shared according to the Rev Share percentage?





For me it is rogue behavior to hide stuff from the affiliates - whether it is hiding stats or just not telling us how NGR is calculated. It don't think that you got moved to the rogue section just because you removed stats 3 years ago. You got moved to that section because of the sum of all your actions, broken promises, vague answers, evasions and move towards 0% transparency over the past weeks/months/years.
Nobody has ever explained to us why these stats were removed. We only got promises that "they will be up very soon again", "that they had to be removed in order to transit to the new system". Obviously, this was not the actual reason for removing the stats. We have yet to date heard any good reason why you would remove stats.

I have asked for detailed stats both online and on conferences without getting any. I have heard excuses like that you don't have them, that you are too busy to provide me with them, that the system can not export fees like that. All of this is just insane in my opinion.





This is just not true. I have been asking for a breakdown of the NGR for many years (from different affiliate managers) both online and IRL at conferences without ever getting any.

The entire issue looks very obvious to me - when you got rogue-flagged you decided to change your strategy and share info. As Miles said, he is not in charge of things. He has just done what he has been told. I have a hard time imagining that you have not discussed this issue the past couple of weeks when we have asked him the same questions over and over again without getting any answers (regarding the NGR calculation). He has been in the industry long enough that he knew what we were asking for. He is not stupid.

Also, don't say it is a top priority because your actions the past weeks (months and years) says it really has not been your top priority at all. I really hope this rogue-mark worked as a wake-up call for you and that it now really is your top priority.

However, I am glad that we agree on that full transparency is the only way to go. If you manage to achieve that I will salute you and give you WAY more exposure on my network of sites. But you really have to prove yourself here and not just talk. Average will not do it for me. I want you to be a leader in transparency. Dare to take the lead in the industry and I promise you that you will come out on the other side and earn way more money than your competitors.

Thank you for your feedback Gobo. I look forward to get more exposure from you when we get all requested updates available on our affiliate platform. We are going to make this happen in May release or latest June.

The fees are deducted from the GGR before affiliate commission is calculated. So the costs are shared.

About the player retention, we base the numbers on what our game provider shows us. For example, we had a meeting with one of our top 3 providers last week, they showed us the average percentage of returning customers on their network, which was 5%, while our numbers was 25% on the same period in their games. According to them, they hadn’t seen anyone else with these high numbers before.

I also want to point out that we had one of the lowest spend per customer/month as well. So the end result of this is that our customer spends less per month but are active much longer.

We have not had any increased fees except regulatory taxes.

Hope this is clear now.

Regards,